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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 13, 2014 12:26:35 GMT -5
I don't know how effectively we will be able to train while the ship is traveling. Outside of Pentadastion we were able to go into the city for supplies. Current training needs: -Paavo, 1st level cleric spells -Youssef, 5th level magic user spells -Nordel, 3/1 attacks -Grimstone, specialization -Haider, 2nd and 3rd level magic user and cleric spells -Trommer, 1st level druid spells Also Finnious will be ready to train for 4th level magic user spells after the next session. There is even the possibility that Dan could reach 9th level. Paavo won't be able to train since he has to drive the ship. Nordel may be out of luck since we don't have anyone who can train him. I guess some people could stay to train while some people take the ship south. Others could be transported to a city for training. Then we would have to rely on teleport to bring everyone back together. In the past the magic users have been reticent to offer that service. Probably getting ahead of ourselves. Any chance we could pre-purchase supplies for training Youssef for the next level? I am not sure where we will be when we are ready to train again. I don't entirely object to this. Unfortunately it costs the max. 1d6+1=6, 2d6+9=17 5400GP Did we do this?
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Fin
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Fin on Feb 13, 2014 16:17:20 GMT -5
Fin will also empty out some of the less useful but very heavy items from his backpack, adding them to the list of stuff on the ship. I'll come to the next session with these items marked off. Fin believes if we're going in after a lich, he'll definitely need the ability run like a stripe-assed ape.
Upon further reflection, maybe it would be best to scrag Haffrung before heading into the Dark Tower. What does Holomir think of this idea?
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 9:28:37 GMT -5
More thoughts:
The lammasu and/or other clerics (Cornelius, Vashalla, Harringdon?, Verus?, gnomes?) should use Speak with Dead on Avvakris and his son Aphris. They must have known how to get past the traps and the lightning bolt at the entrance of the Dark Tower since Aphris needed to petition Konah to have Avvakris resurrected. Our clerics can ask how to avoid these and other traps in the Dark Tower. What other defenses are in place. They can use Combine to increase their levels and get more questions. Can Holomir coordinate this? Paavo and Dan don't have the authority to order them to help.
The description of Phase Door mentions that it can be dispelled by "several lower level magic-users, casting in concert, whose combined levels of experience are more than double that of the magic-user who cast the spell." I am wondering if we can cast Dispel Magic in concert to dispel other magics. Is there anything special you need to do to cast Dispel Magic in concert? We could muster 43 (= 11 + 9 + 9 + 7 + 7) levels from Colby, Mary, Youssef, Fin and Dariel.
Any chance we could bargain with Arawn if it came to that? Are there gnomes who could scan the library in the White Tower for information on this deity? Maybe the fact that Set is preventing people from dying by the existence of the Dark Tower will interest him. If he lets Trommer stay with us then we can defeat Set and restore the normal cycle of life and death to this area.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 10:28:31 GMT -5
Speak with dead won't compel answers from an unfriendly corpse. I don't think questioning them will work.
Bargaining with Arawn to help us stop the curse on this land is a great idea. It's unlikely to work, but good outside the box thinking.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 10:52:56 GMT -5
The description of Phase Door mentions that it can be dispelled by "several lower level magic-users, casting in concert, whose combined levels of experience are more than double that of the magic-user who cast the spell." I am wondering if we can cast Dispel Magic in concert to dispel other magics. Is there anything special you need to do to cast Dispel Magic in concert? We could muster 43 (= 11 + 9 + 9 + 7 + 7) levels from Colby, Mary, Youssef, Fin and Dariel. We have rules for casting spells with multiple casters using Ritual Magic. I think it would fall under that category.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 10:53:53 GMT -5
The DMG (p 42) says that unfriendly creatures can be evasive but it doesn't say they can lie or refuse to answer.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 11:06:19 GMT -5
Didn't we question someone years ago who basically told us to go f@&% ourselves? Also, back in the day, those slaads (or maybe it was some other chaotic creature) gave us a seemingly random sequence of words.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 11:30:06 GMT -5
Reading the post on Ritual Magick it doesn't sound apropos to this. You can't get enough of a bump with a ritual to double your level. The slaad chose to answer in its native language which none of us understood. I don't think Avvakris has that choice. In the past we have had to roll reaction adjustment to see how willing the dead was to give up answers. It couldn't refuse but it could be more or less loquacious.
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 13:02:54 GMT -5
I don't know how effectively we will be able to train while the ship is traveling. Outside of Pentadastion we were able to go into the city for supplies. Probably getting ahead of ourselves. We'll see who survives the Dark Tower and go from there. Typically you need access to the goods & services of a town for training. I don't entirely object to this. Unfortunately it costs the max. 1d6+1=6, 2d6+9=17 5400GP Did we do this? Yes, actually. Believe it or not, it's noted in the party accounts. Which are on that shared document I posted earlier in the thread. Record-keeping! Upon further reflection, maybe it would be best to scrag Haffrung before heading into the Dark Tower. What does Holomir think of this idea? Holomir seems pretty focused on the Dark Tower. The lammasu and/or other clerics (Cornelius, Vashalla, Harringdon?, Verus?, gnomes?) should use Speak with Dead on Avvakris and his son Aphris. They must have known how to get past the traps and the lightning bolt at the entrance of the Dark Tower since Aphris needed to petition Konah to have Avvakris resurrected. Our clerics can ask how to avoid these and other traps in the Dark Tower. What other defenses are in place. They can use Combine to increase their levels and get more questions. Can Holomir coordinate this? Paavo and Dan don't have the authority to order them to help. The three sane clerics (lammasu) are tapped on spells. Need 6 hours rest and then 4.5 hours memorization. There are two lammasu not present memorizing spells for battle. There are no gnome clerics who can cast Speak with Dead. The three insane clerics (Verus Vorum, Harringdon, Cornelius) aren't coherent enough to coordinate into Speaking with Dead. Vashalla isn't present and technically Holomir isn't supposed to admit her to the White Tower anyway. And I object to having my living NPCs question my dead NPCs. This is something the party should do. The description of Phase Door mentions that it can be dispelled by "several lower level magic-users, casting in concert, whose combined levels of experience are more than double that of the magic-user who cast the spell." I am wondering if we can cast Dispel Magic in concert to dispel other magics. Is there anything special you need to do to cast Dispel Magic in concert? This is only applicable to Phase Door. We could muster 43 (= 11 + 9 + 9 + 7 + 7) levels from Colby, Mary, Youssef, Fin and Dariel. Remove Dariel from that equation. He cannot cast in concert with a magic-user. Any chance we could bargain with Arawn if it came to that? I would love for you to try. Are there gnomes who could scan the library in the White Tower for information on this deity? Nope. Also the extensive sage's library cannot be "scanned".
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 13:35:12 GMT -5
There is a reason why the White Tower hasn't been able to destroy the Dark Tower in the last 600 years. They are all idiots! (Paavo thinks inside his head).
Is it Holomir's plan to do an assault on the Dark Tower without any forethought? Hasn't he been planning this from day 1. You would think he and the rest of the White Tower would of thought of some plans. This is his show. We are here to support not to lead the charge. (I know there is a PC/NPC thing going on here but it wouldn't make sense for him to defer to us on everything.)
We can provide questions for the two lammasu and Vashalla to ask or we can delay the assault until Dan can do another sleep cycle or we could try taking the bodies to Antioch and asking the lama's to help. It will have to be done in session since each question depends on the previous answers.
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Post by Bolo on Feb 14, 2014 13:42:34 GMT -5
we could try taking the bodies to Antioch and asking the lama's to help. Every time I read this word on this forum I see it as "llamas". There is always only one L, but my eyes always see two. I can't help it. DM, please can we have an encounter some time with a herd of spellcasting holy llamas?
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 14:09:14 GMT -5
There is a reason why the White Tower hasn't been able to destroy the Dark Tower in the last 600 years. They are all idiots! (Paavo thinks inside his head). That's not exactly fair. Also doesn't seem a very paladinly sentiment. Holomir has been as forthright as possible and offered all the resources at his disposal. And it's more like 300 years. The White Tower lost this fight a long, long time ago. They've been barely holding on ever since. There's a potent curse against evil on the tower and an anti-evil forcefield and the place is still ripped up. He cannot control the clay golems. He's sworn to defend a clan of 0-level gnomes. He has 5 flakey lammasu and a loner/outcast storm giant. Holomir does his best to defend the White Tower with what he has, but he has never once been on the offense. Is it Holomir's plan to do an assault on the Dark Tower without any forethought? Hasn't he been planning this from day 1. You would think he and the rest of the White Tower would of thought of some plans. This is his show. We are here to support not to lead the charge. (I know there is a PC/NPC thing going on here but it wouldn't make sense for him to defer to us on everything.) What elaborate plans are you looking for? Cast Find Traps, go into the Tower, avoid the traps, kill the bad guys. Or die trying. Would definitely help to have a high-level adventuring party along. This is an opportunity - the party has miraculously slain the powerful mortal servants of the Dark Tower. Something he could not do on his own. Holomir will attack the Dark Tower with or without the party. Dariel, Murkey and Moram Infidelbane will choose to accompany Holomir. We can provide questions for the two lammasu and Vashalla to ask or we can delay the assault until Dan can do another sleep cycle or we could try taking the bodies to Antioch and asking the lama's to help. It will have to be done in session since each question depends on the previous answers. You really think the slain priests of Set are going to be super-helpful to their murderers? And assist them in their efforts to attack their high place of worship?
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 14:48:48 GMT -5
Not sure about Manahath the Chosen. What can Holomir tell us about him? Manahath is one of the four Chosen Sons of Set. He arrived from the Dark Tower and rose up above the battle on great bat wings, like an angel of death. He has two dragon heads and four arms. He is a potent sorcerer, delivering hellish fire, lightning and ice upon the White Tower's defenders. Manahath is the most dread foe Holomir has ever faced.
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Feb 14, 2014 14:52:03 GMT -5
I don't suppose the Helmet of Mindshielding will make it harder for Arwan to find me?
Perhaps the slain priests will repent and beg for Ukko's of Mitra's favor? The afterlife can't be looking to good to them now.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 14:54:04 GMT -5
That's not exactly fair. Also doesn't seem a very paladinly sentiment. Holomir has been as forthright as possible and offered all the resources at his disposal. And it's more like 300 years. The White Tower lost this fight a long, long time ago. They've been barely holding on ever since. There's a potent curse against evil on the tower and an anti-evil forcefield and the place is still ripped up. He cannot control the clay golems. He's sworn to defend a clan of 0-level gnomes. He has 5 flakey lammasu and a loner/outcast storm giant. Holomir does his best to defend the White Tower with what he has, but he has never once been on the offense. Paladins are allowed to get annoyed. Holomir has mentioned previous (unsuccessful) attempts to assault the Dark Tower. He might be down to a skeleton staff now but he wasn't always. Also Dan saw a whole host of Lions of Mitra there to greet Hortensia when we returned her bondes. Are they not able to join the assault? What elaborate plans are you looking for? Cast Find Traps, go into the Tower, avoid the traps, kill the bad guys. Or die trying. Would definitely help to have a high-level adventuring party along. This is an opportunity - the party has miraculously slain the powerful mortal servants of the Dark Tower. Something he could not do on his own. Holomir will attack the Dark Tower with or without the party. Dariel, Murkey and Moram Infidelbane will choose to accompany Holomir. How does Find Traps help you get past a trap on the front door when there is no other way into the place? Also he has had access to 10 Commune questions a week for 300 years. That comes out to 156,000 questions. I think he could be a little more prepared. You really think the slain priests of Set are going to be super-helpful to their murderers? And assist them in their efforts to attack their high place of worship? As I see it they don't have a choice. Speaking with the dead isn't a nice little chat. It is pulling someone's soul back to this plane and forcing them to answer questions. They can attempt to give evasive answers but they can't refuse to answer a direct question. Otherwise what would be the point of the spell? Clearly it is useless to ask questions of the living people who are on your side. What would be the point of asking a dead ally? So that leaves asking living or dead enemies. The living enemies aren't going to comply because we can't torture them. And it is hard to torture a dead. So basically you are saying there is no way to get advanced intelligence. So yeah, I am annoyed.
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 15:21:42 GMT -5
Holomir has mentioned previous (unsuccessful) attempts to assault the Dark Tower. He might be down to a skeleton staff now but he wasn't always. Also Dan saw a whole host of Lions of Mitra there to greet Hortensia when we returned her bondes. Are they not able to join the assault? There was a warband that tried to assault the Dark Tower in the beginning. They were never seen again. Holomir has some Lions of Mitra he can call upon, yes. He will do so when the time is right. How does Find Traps help you get past a trap on the front door when there is no other way into the place? Dispel Magic blows the glyphs. Holomir has a holy sword "Lawgiver" that projects a circle of power. A little faith. Good to go. Also he has had access to 10 Commune questions a week for 300 years. That comes out to 156,000 questions. I think he could be a little more prepared. There's only a 20% chance of the Commune working. What yes/no questions would be helpful in this situation? Are there glyphs on the front door? YES. Are there infernal guardians? YES. Are there undead? YES. Should I eat anything I find on the ground inside? NO. Assume everything he knows comes from using that Commune, his scrying device or direct personal experience. As I see it they don't have a choice. Speaking with the dead isn't a nice little chat. It is pulling someone's soul back to this plane and forcing them to answer questions. They can attempt to give evasive answers but they can't refuse to answer a direct question. Otherwise what would be the point of the spell? The questions will be taken "absolutely literally," the answers will be "brief" and "evasive as possible". Per the DMG. But you can give it a shot. Clearly it is useless to ask questions of the living people who are on your side. What information are they not providing you that you think they should have? You can't just say tell me everything you know and expect me to dump paragraphs of information. Every specific question you've asked has been answered. Have I missed any? They've exhausted their spells healing you. They've given you every magic item in the Tower. Holomir provided a map of the 4th level and has provided all the insights he has. They've given you their rod of resurrection... What more are you looking for!? So basically you are saying there is no way to get advanced intelligence. That's not at all what I'm saying. But Speak with Dead isn't free answers to whatever you want and the NPCs don't have personal intimate knowledge of the Dark Tower and its inhabitants. Well, one might... I'm not entirely sure why.
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 15:25:52 GMT -5
I don't suppose the Helmet of Mindshielding will make it harder for Arwan to find me? No, flat 20% chance. Perhaps the slain priests will repent and beg for Ukko's of Mitra's favor? The afterlife can't be looking to good to them now. They're going to double-down on evil.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 16:30:25 GMT -5
I'm going to throw out more commune questions.
Is the entrance to the Dark Tower opposite the entrance to the White Tower the only entrance to the Dark Tower? (If there's one the bad guys believe to be secret, using it might work to our advantage.) Is Konah the Dissentor immune to non-magical weapons? Ditto for Pneusset Ditto for Manahath Is Haffrung's Magic Jar in the Dark Tower? Is it possible to Dimension Door into the Dark Tower?
I'm sure we can think of others
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Fin
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Fin on Feb 14, 2014 16:38:52 GMT -5
Per the Player's Manual, Speak With Dead states "...the cleric is able to ask several questions of a dead creature in a set period of time and receive answers according to the knowledge of that creature." Nothing in there about refusals to answer...nor is there anything talking about a compulsion to reveal information a dead creature might not voluntarily reveal.
In other words, it seems to me we can ask questions. It would depend upon who is asking and what questions are asked. I agree that an evil priest of Set might not answer the question "tell us how to disable the traps and wards on the Fanged Gate", but I see no reason why he might not answer a question along the lines of "what glyphs guard the Fanged Gate?"
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 16:43:23 GMT -5
I remember in past instances when we tried things like this and the result was something like: Q: What glyphs guard the fanged gate? A: Deadly glyphs that will slay you all!! Glory to Set! MWAHAHAHA!!
I think "according to the knowledge of the creature" includes the fact that the creature knows he hates us, we killed him, and he wants us to die painfully.
Maybe that was due to imprecise questions, but I think that the bad guys have a lot of evasion unless we just ask yes or no questions, in which case we have access to a commune spell.
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 16:44:16 GMT -5
I'm going to throw out more commune questions. Is the entrance to the Dark Tower opposite the entrance to the White Tower the only entrance to the Dark Tower? (If there's one the bad guys believe to be secret, using it might work to our advantage.) Is Konah the Dissentor immune to non-magical weapons? Ditto for Pneusset Ditto for Manahath Is Haffrung's Magic Jar in the Dark Tower? Is it possible to Dimension Door into the Dark Tower? I'm sure we can think of others Holomir can answer those questions as follows: No. (but he doesn't know where/what it might be) Yes. Yes. Yes. Doesn't know. Yes.
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Post by venger on Feb 14, 2014 16:49:59 GMT -5
I think "according to the knowledge of the creature" includes the fact that the creature knows he hates us, we killed him, and he wants us to die painfully. The DMG says pretty much this. But Dohevin, Eaomir (lammasu) will come down from the White Tower and cast four Speak with Deads for the party, then rest 6 hours and go back to memorizing if it makes the party happy. That's 12 questions. And you can keep coming up with Commune questions that Holomir might be able to answer.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 16:56:19 GMT -5
More questions, then!
Is there some method in our power to temporarily or permanently fix the affliction on Poor Harrington? If yes, can we use the Dreamstone?
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 14, 2014 17:06:05 GMT -5
I remember in past instances when we tried things like this and the result was something like: Q: What glyphs guard the fanged gate? A: Deadly glyphs that will slay you all!! Glory to Set! MWAHAHAHA!! I think "according to the knowledge of the creature" includes the fact that the creature knows he hates us, we killed him, and he wants us to die painfully. Maybe that was due to imprecise questions, but I think that the bad guys have a lot of evasion unless we just ask yes or no questions, in which case we have access to a commune spell. How about: Q: What are the names of the glyphs that guard the fanged gate? Q: Are there other glyphs in the Dark Tower? Q: What are the names of the other glyphs in the Dark Tower? Also there was something or someone who shot a lightning bolt at Paavo through the darkness of the gate. I would like to know how it knew to target Paavo and how to stop it from doing so. Something like Q: What did you do to prevent from being struck by a lightning bolt when you entered the fanged gate? A: I gave the correct counter sign (or something similarly vague) Q: What is the correct counter sign to prevent from being struck by a lightning bolt when you entered the fanged gate?
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Post by Ginger on Feb 14, 2014 17:06:24 GMT -5
I changed the number of posts per page to 20, instead of 15. I hope no one objects. I'd prefer to increase it even more, since long threads like these get really annoying when you have to have a separate window keeping track of all the previous material you're quoting.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 15, 2014 16:43:31 GMT -5
New HP totals= Paavo: 54/58Nordel: 57/58Mary: 30/30 Dan: 36/40 Youssef: 18/22Colby: 43/43 Azhbar: 28/28 Haidar: 24/24 Grimstone: 46 Level ups!Paavo 9th Youssef 9th Azhbar 8th Nordel 7th Grimstone 6th Finnious 7th (thief) We should make sure that the people leveling up are at full before they sleep. Can we get some healing from Cornelius or Vashalla since they aren't coming into the Dark Tower?
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 15, 2014 17:16:40 GMT -5
I suppose Nordel will reach max with 8 hours of sleep. But Paavo and Youssef and maybe Fin (no hp posted) could use some healing.
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Post by venger on Feb 17, 2014 22:44:56 GMT -5
How about: Q: What are the names of the glyphs that guard the fanged gate? Q: Are there other glyphs in the Dark Tower? Q: What are the names of the other glyphs in the Dark Tower? Also there was something or someone who shot a lightning bolt at Paavo through the darkness of the gate. I would like to know how it knew to target Paavo and how to stop it from doing so. Something like Q: What did you do to prevent from being struck by a lightning bolt when you entered the fanged gate? A: I gave the correct counter sign (or something similarly vague) Q: What is the correct counter sign to prevent from being struck by a lightning bolt when you entered the fanged gate? These seem tentative--- we can resolve the Speak with Dead questions on the board but I don't want to waste your questions if you are still brainstorming. We should make sure that the people leveling up are at full before they sleep. Can we get some healing from Cornelius or Vashalla since they aren't coming into the Dark Tower? Sure, Cornelius has spells left to heal everyone to full if you hike up the White Tower back to the village.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 18, 2014 10:13:03 GMT -5
Can Holomir tell us the comparative power levels of the three crazy clerics of Mitra? We could use the Dream Stone to restore them, or use Dariel's Heal spell. If one of them is 9+, I think it's worth expending resources to get them in fighting shape.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 18, 2014 10:57:18 GMT -5
I don't know if Heal works on the mentally insane. I think it just heals magical insanity and feeblemindedness.
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