escape from Tzolo's Tomb

[Bolo]

Aug 6, 2013 15:23:45 GMT -5 venger said:

Assuming you do manage to escape, with a ton of treasure, what activities are you planning upon return to civilization?

Please check your email for some thoughts about Bolo.

[venger]

Aug 9, 2013 9:36:15 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

I still think we can scrap some existing magic items for the material for new items.

There is no practical benefit to scrapping +1 or +2 weapons. These items aren't made of rare metals. None of the expensive reagents that go into the crafting are recoverable.

Exotic metals can be reclaimed from weapons/armor +3 or greater by a smith trained in such methods, but that +5 enchantment is still 15000GP.

The cost to obtain special meteoric iron, mithral, adamantite is not included in the price to enchant the item.

Enchanting is costly and time-consuming. The materials used must be of the finest quality. It is not meant to be a profitable enterprise.

[Ginger]

Enchanted Weapon is a PHB spell, so it shouldn't be too tough to trade for it in the College. I'm all for spending months crafting items or researching new spells, since Colby could have a long, long time to sleep after he's raised.

[Wolfgar]

I know I shouldn't try to reason with the economics of D&D, but I just can't stop myself. Why should the cost of fabricating an item be more than the price listed in the DMG? Supply and demand would imply that the price of a magic item is much more than the cost of manufacturing. You should be able to sell a magic item for several times what it costs to make it given the rarity of the items. If it was cheaper to purchase something than to fabricate it then you would just have someone make the magic item at the price listed in the DMG and save yourself the difference. We should just put up signs in the bazaar saying that we will buy any item at list price since we have all this excess cash.

[Ginger]

I know I've posted this article about D&D economic absurdity before, but it's worth revisiting.
econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/05/my_earliest_enc.html
"In short: You can save someone's life, and they still refuse to trade at par. Even when I was eleven years old, that seemed more fantastic than a ring of invisibility."

[Friedrich]

Nice article, HAHA!

This is NOT the case when PCs deal with NPC [non-player character] henchmen or hirelings. Non-player character hirelings or henchmen will ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to co-operate freely with player characters, even their own masters or mistresses.

At least Eddie allows Mary to freely exchange spells with the rest of the party. Where would we be if Mary was the only one with Magic Missile, Fireball and Strange Waters?

[venger]

Aug 12, 2013 16:23:45 GMT -5 Ginger said:

I'm all for spending months crafting items or researching new spells, since Colby could have a long, long time to sleep after he's raised.

I suppose then that BattleSystem™ rules will have to determine the fate of the Forest Kingdom.

Aug 12, 2013 17:38:26 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

I know I shouldn't try to reason with the economics of D&D, but I just can't stop myself. Why should the cost of fabricating an item be more than the price listed in the DMG? Supply and demand would imply that the price of a magic item is much more than the cost of manufacturing. You should be able to sell a magic item for several times what it costs to make it given the rarity of the items.

Well, there's always the magic was greater in ages past trope, so perhaps the more lucrative crafting techniques of antiquity have been lost... because in this "Dark Age" of Dungeons & Dragons fabrication of magic items is expensive, time-consuming and runs the risk of permanent constitution loss. It takes a 16th level magic-user or rare artificers' tools that I invented for the campaign.

This keeps supply pretty low.

Magic items prices are also well beyond what most of the population can afford. A magic sword is an impractical luxury item. You could have 200 broadswords for the price of a +1 broadsword. Or 200 cows. Or put an addition on your castle. DMG pg. 107.

This limits demand.

That said, wizards still make them because they have the means (magic tools) or the ability (16th level bad-ass). And occasionally they sell them because they're NPCs and that's how they get experience and then they use the money to level up and train and buy more stuff to make more magic... and there are the odd rich individuals or adventurers like the party who will buy them at the exorbitant book prices. Or commission a crazy expensive +5 sword because they need an adamantite, Immortal-killing longsword to save the world.

And there's already a huge inventory built up over years as these are permanent items that rarely fail savings throws.

Besides magic-users and clerics, legendary NPCs (non-spellcasters) have crafted them through the ages and continue to do so, gods & demons and assorted extraplanar entities continually make them and unleash them on the unsuspecting world; and occasionally they are spontaneously created because magic is wild and unpredictable and I like to roll on the treasure tables.

Aug 12, 2013 17:38:26 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

If it was cheaper to purchase something than to fabricate it then you would just have someone make the magic item at the price listed in the DMG and save yourself the difference.

I'm not following this, unless the assumption is that the magic items available for sale in the bazaar are being fabricated through methods different/cheaper than those available to the party.

Aug 12, 2013 17:38:26 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

We should just put up signs in the bazaar saying that we will buy any item at list price since we have all this excess cash.

The Arabian Nights style magical bazaar of exotic Barb-el-Shay, where one can find wonders beyond imagination, is the exception to the rule of "no magic shops" in the campaign. There is not an unlimited inventory. The provenance of these items is unknown.

But yeah, you can buy them all if you want.

Aug 12, 2013 20:28:15 GMT -5 Friedrich said:

Nice article, HAHA!

This is NOT the case when PCs deal with NPC [non-player character] henchmen or hirelings. Non-player character hirelings or henchmen will ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to co-operate freely with player characters, even their own masters or mistresses.

At least Eddie allows Mary to freely exchange spells with the rest of the party. Where would we be if Mary was the only one with Magic Missile, Fireball and Strange Waters?

Henchmen by-the-book are jerks.

The party has allowed their henchmen to progress in their respective classes, advance their abilities and utilize their skills without begrudging any costs. They are provided with equipment, magic items, lodgings and any expenses are covered. At least, that's how the DM has viewed it.

Mary having to act as Friedrich's food-preparer was the closest we've ever come to a henchman conflict... Marcus being a hireling.

[Wolfgar]

Well I haven't seen anywhere in the DMG or PHB where it says that the cost to manufacture a magic item is the price listed in the DMG plus additional material costs. The only explicit reference to cost that I could find says that the cost to make a potion equals the experience point value of a potion (not including the cost of setting up a lab). As potions are one time use items you would expect the price to be closer to manufacturing cost. For permanent items, you would expect the price to be several multiples of the manufacturing cost given the continual utility of the item.

I tried to do a search of Dragonsfoot but I couldn't find any good discussions of the cost of fabricating a magic item.

[venger]

Aug 14, 2013 13:10:17 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

Well I haven't seen anywhere in the DMG or PHB where it says that the cost to manufacture a magic item

DMG pg. 8

As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death. Peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game which has rules hidden from participants. It is in your interests, and in theirs, to discourage possession of this book by players. If any of your participants do read herein, it is suggested that you assess them a heavy fee for consulting "sages" and other sources of information not normally attainable by the inhabitants of your milieu. If they express knowledge which could only be garnered by consulting these pages, a magic item or two can be taken as payment - insufficient, but perhaps it will tend to discourage such actions.

It's like I find something new every time I read the DMG...

DMG pg. 116

FABRICATION OF MAGIC ITEMS, INCLUDING POTIONS AND
SCROLLS
It is an obvious premise of the game that magic items are made somewhere by someone or something. A properly run campaign will be relatively stringent with respect to the number of available magic items, so your players will sooner or later express a desire to manufacture their own. Do not tell them how this is to be accomplished! In order to find out, they must consult with a sage (q.v.) or a high level character of the proper profession, the latter being detailed a bit hereafter.

The DMG makes it pretty clear that players should not be privy to the details of magic item construction.

Aug 14, 2013 13:10:17 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

The only explicit reference to cost that I could find says that the cost to make a potion equals the experience point value of a potion (not including the cost of setting up a lab).

In order to avoid the length and complication of separate formulae for each type of potion, the following simple system is given. Both the cost in gold pieces and the days of compounding and infusing are determined by use of the experience points award (as shown on the list of magic items) amounts. If no experience points are shown, then the potion has a 200 g.p. base for cost and time determination. The point award for a given potion is also the amount of gold pieces the magic-user must pay in order to concoct the basic formula - with rare herbs and spices and even more exotic ingredients. The number of days required to brew the potion is the same figure, each hundred or fraction thereof indicating one full day of compounding time to manufacture the liquid, i.e., 250 x.p. = 250 g.p. basic costs and 3 full days of time.

Most important to the manufacture of a potion is the substance of its power, the special ingredient.

The list of potions and special ingredients possible is given for your convenience only. You may opt for any reasonable special ingredient you deem suitable for a potion, keeping in mind difficulty of obtaining the material (hopefully high or greater) and its sympathetic equivalency or relationship to the end result of quaffing the potion.

Potion-making is fairly explicit in that the basic costs borne do not include the required facilities OR obtaining "special ingredients" like hydra tongues and aerial servant ichor.

It's not a stretch to extrapolate that to special materials to construct permanent magic items.

Aug 14, 2013 13:10:17 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

For permanent items, you would expect the price to be several multiples of the manufacturing cost given the continual utility of the item.

Permanently creating a new magic item involves breaking the laws of conservation of magical energy. The cost to do this is extreme (time, money, constitution loss) and there is a risk of total failure, resulting in loss of all materials & resources expended.

The end result is a +1 sword.

Just because something takes a lot of time and money to create, doesn't mean anyone wants it or needs it or is willing to shell out a ton of money to own it.

In the end you're going to have to suspend your disbelief because I won't have a creation system that allows the party to craft magic items and sell them for profit.

Just like I won't let you sell continual light stones to every villager or open a Create Food bed & breakfast or any number of High Fantasy campaign world cliches I hate where magic replaces industry.

[venger]

I don't mind potions, single-use charms, etc. being sold at profit as they are in Barb-el-Shay. Hedgewizards, witches and alchemists have to make a living.

And you have to figure there are other factors (special ingredients, materials, tools, ancient methods, etc.) that can reduce the cost of enchanting.

But I am of the belief that creating a permanent magic item is an act that requires sacrifice.

[Wolfgar]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here. So if the Sultan of Barb-el-Shay (MAY HE REIGN FOREVER) asks his court wizard to make a +2 scimitar for a new royal guardsman, you are telling me that the wizard is going to tell the Sultan (MAY HE REIGN FOREVER) that it will cost 6000 gp not including the cost of the material. While if the Sultan (MAY HE REIGN FOREVER) sent his personal shopper to the Bazaar, he could get the same thing for much less from Lokthar the Enchanter (who buys them at 1500 gp). I think the wizard would be in trouble.

[venger]

I'm telling you there is one 16th level magic-user in Barb-el-Shay, Azul-Azrad, the Dean of the College. And he doesn't work for the Sultan. And he probably wouldn't risk 5% chance of constitution loss to make a +2 sword anyway.

Also the material cost (mundane metal) for a +2 sword is included in the cost for the facilities.

I suppose the Sultan (MAY HE REIGN FOREVER) could beseech the most holy Fizzi Fininni for such a weapon if the need was great, but Fizzi can only make cleric weapons and they would cost whatever it says in the DMG.

Lokthar is a magic-user who buys the odd enchanted weapon from down-on-their-luck adventurers who happen into town. He doesn't have a magic weapon shop.

There's a mystical bazaar where sometimes wondrous things turn up and a fantastical Street of Magicians who offer charms, talismans and potions. Which is pretty much the extent of the magical goods for sale in the campaign.

[venger]

Here's the link to the actual treasure spreadsheet.

Total gold, gem, jewelry value: 181177GP

Magic items recovered from the tomb:
red clay ring (elemental command: mud) 1
Red alloy mace 1
platemail (m) 1
Platinum statue of mantiger* 1
Tzila's field plate (female) 1
White ivory ring (spell-turning) 1
Silver necklace* (woe!) 1
Shovel* 1
Dirk* 1
Shortsword* 1
Longsword* 1
heavy leather gauntlets* 1
silver/ivory scepter capped w/ diamond* 1
gold and jeweled girdle* 1
wooden bowl - water symbols* 1
scroll - protection from water elemental 1
scroll - protection from earth elemental 1
scroll - tenser's transf, proj img @ 20th 1
scroll - gust of wind, disintegrate @ 20th 1
scroll: strength @ 20th level 1
cleric scroll: heal, conjure elemental 1
scroll: monster summon IV, crystalbrittle 20th 2
evil talisman* 1
gold ring of spell storing: 1
--enervation 1
--invisible stalker 1
--globe of invulnerability 1
--power word: stun 0

wand of earth & stone 1
broadsword rimed with frost 1
deep red sphere ioun stone 1
lavender ellipsoid ioun stone 1
elephant spirit's khopesh sword 1
khopesh sword set w/ tourmaline 1
guardian stone 1
elephant spirit tusks 2

clear blue gemstone 1
oak wand "magware" 1
mahogany wand "tishra" 1
large black leather book 1
hand axe 2
glass-steel battleaxe 1
gnarled oak staff w/ elemental runes 1
black marble baton (necromantic) 1
javelin 4
magic quiver 1
Red robes 1
porcelain vial 1
porcelain vial 2
sealed metal vials 3
white fizzing potion* 1
Clear potion* 1

TRAPPED ITEMS:
raven urn (t)
snake urn (t)
ivory scroll tube (t)
Minor Prophecies of the Jezulein (t)
Perfect Iron Circle Magic (t)
The Diary of Mishtot (t)
Mud, Fear & Future (t)
Faintest Whispers of Jezule (t)
Daughters of the Earth, Sons of Water (t)

[Ginger]

What do the asterisks denote?

[Wolfgar]

Was Hortensia resurrected by the effects of the wish? I don't know if she is included in the party for those purposes. Of course if she is no longer dead then we have no reason to return her bones to the White Tower. But if she wanted she could join the party. She would get to use Tzila's platemail.

[venger]

Aug 19, 2013 7:32:39 GMT -5 Ginger said:

What do the asterisks denote?

Ignore that. Relics of previous detect magic spells marked on the character sheets.

Aug 19, 2013 7:54:19 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

Was Hortensia resurrected by the effects of the wish? I don't know if she is included in the party for those purposes.

No, though that would have been an interesting use for a wish.

Her bones languished in that cell for 333 years. Hortencia is patient and will not rush the party to return her to the White Tower. Though, depending on which route the party takes south, it's kind of on the way.

[Ginger]

What does Wizard Sight tell us about the nature of the trapped items? Can we get a wizard sight note on all of the items in this list?

[Wolfgar]

Would Colby be willing to teleport Tzila to Fizzi so we no longer have to deal with her?

We have 6 days back to Pentadastion. Assuming it is calm enough aboard the ship, we should have time to do 18 identifies - 24 if Trommer joins in. We have plenty of pearls and plenty of items.

I have sorted what we currently have into categories. Bold items are identified or known. I have included the shield Paavo has been carrying and the wand of frost. Let me know if there are other items people were using. Ignoring the potions and assuming the multiple hand axes and multiple javelins are like items, we have 28 items that need at least one identify. We can just delay our return 1 day and finish ID'ing everything. Any issues with that?

magic quiver - never empty
glass-steel battleaxe
broadsword rimed with frost
Longsword
Red alloy mace
Dirk
Shortsword
elephant spirit's khopesh sword
khopesh sword set w/ tourmaline
hand axe 2
javelin 4

platemail (m)
Tzila's shield, fanged elephant
Tzila's field plate (female)

wand of forst "frigida"
wand of earth & stone - command word?
gnarled oak staff w/ elemental runes
black marble baton (necromantic)
oak wand "magware"
mahogany wand "tishra"
silver/ivory scepter capped w/ diamond

deep red sphere ioun stone - +1 dexterity
lavender ellipsoid ioun stone - spell absorption
Silver necklace (woe!)
evil talisman, pure evil
heavy leather gauntlets
gold and jeweled girdle
Red robes
Platinum statue of mantiger
Shovel
wooden bowl - water symbols
clear blue gemstone
large black leather book
guardian stone
elephant spirit tusks 2

gold ring of spell storing:
--enervation 1
--invisible stalker 1
--globe of invulnerability 1
--power word: stun 0
red clay ring (elemental command: mud)
White ivory ring (spell-turning)

porcelain vial 1
porcelain vial 2
sealed metal vials 3
white fizzing potion 1
Clear potion 1

scroll - protection from water elemental
scroll - protection from earth elemental
scroll - tenser's transf, proj img @ 20th
scroll - gust of wind, disintegrate @ 20th
scroll: strength @ 20th level
scroll: monster summon IV, crystalbrittle 20th
cleric scroll: heal, conjure elemental
Scroll 1: Stone Tell, Animate Rock, Spike Stones @ 15th level
Scroll 2: Transmute Dust to Water, Part Water, Airy Water @ 20th level
Scroll 3: a map to Nagyjat's Labyrinth in the Under-Desert.
Scroll 4: a map depicting unfamiliar jungle topography: a river emptying into a very large lake surrounded by swamp and a mountain to the south with a plume of smoke coming from the top.

TRAPPED ITEMS:
raven urn (t)
snake urn (t)
Book - Minor Prophecies of the Jezulein (t)
Book - Perfect Iron Circle Magic (t)
Book - The Diary of Mishtot (t)
Book - Mud, Fear & Future (t)
Book - Faintest Whispers of Jezule (t)
Book - Daughters of the Earth, Sons of Water (t)

[Wolfgar]

Paavo will scan the ship and all items and treasure for evil.

[venger]

Aug 19, 2013 8:35:46 GMT -5 Ginger said:

What does Wizard Sight tell us about the nature of the trapped items?

Books are trapped with alteration. Scroll tube is evocation.

Aug 19, 2013 8:35:46 GMT -5 Ginger said:

Can we get a wizard sight note on all of the items in this list?

::)

Aug 19, 2013 9:25:38 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

magic quiver - never empty - conjuration
glass-steel battleaxe - alteration magic
broadsword rimed with frost - enchantment
Longsword - enchantment
Red alloy mace - enchantment
Dirk - enchantment
Shortsword - enchantment
elephant spirit's khopesh sword - elemental, earth
khopesh sword set w/ tourmaline - enchantment
hand axe 2 - enchantment
javelin 4 - enchantment

platemail (m) - enchantment
Tzila's shield, fanged elephant - enchantment
Tzila's field plate (female) - enchantment

wand of forst "frigida" - enchantment
wand of earth & stone - command word? - elemental, earth
gnarled oak staff w/ elemental runes - elemental magic
black marble baton - necromancy
oak wand "magware" - antimagicks
mahogany wand "tishra" - alteration
silver/ivory scepter capped w/ diamond - enchantment

deep red sphere ioun stone - +1 dexterity - Ioun
lavender ellipsoid ioun stone - spell absorption - Ioun
Silver necklace (woe!) - alteration
evil talisman, pure evil - holy
heavy leather gauntlets - enchantment
gold and jeweled girdle - alteration
Red robes - abjuration
Platinum statue of mantiger - invocation
Shovel - invocation
wooden bowl w/ water symbols - elemental, water
clear blue gemstone - enchantment
large black leather book - generic magic aura
guardian stone - elemental, earth
elephant spirit tusks 2 -nature

gold ring of spell storing: - enchantment
--enervation 1
--invisible stalker 1
--globe of invulnerability 1
--power word: stun 0
red clay ring (elemental command: mud) elemental, earth/water
White ivory ring (spell-turning) - abjuration

porcelain vial 1 - alchemy
porcelain vial 2- alchemy
sealed metal vials 3 - alchemy
white fizzing potion 1 - alchemy
Clear potion 1 - alchemy

scroll - protection from water elemental
scroll - protection from earth elemental
scroll - tenser's transf, proj img @ 20th
scroll - gust of wind, disintegrate @ 20th
scroll: strength @ 20th level
scroll: monster summon IV, crystalbrittle 20th
cleric scroll: heal, conjure elemental

Aug 19, 2013 9:25:38 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

Would Colby be willing to teleport Tzila to Fizzi so we no longer have to deal with her?

Colby only died once in 20 mock teleports I ran. And he took falling damage twice. Got to work on those landings.

Aug 19, 2013 9:25:38 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

I have included the shield Paavo has been carrying and the wand of frost.

Good catch. I think I got everything else.

[venger]

Aug 19, 2013 9:45:37 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

Paavo will scan the ship and all items and treasure for evil.

Evil Talisman of pure evil? Oh yeah, you betcha that's evil.

Platinum man-tiger statuette is also faintly evil.

[Ginger]

Aug 19, 2013 10:15:57 GMT -5 venger said:

Aug 19, 2013 8:35:46 GMT -5 Ginger said:

What does Wizard Sight tell us about the nature of the trapped items?

Books are trapped with alteration. Scroll tube is evocation.

Explosive runes are alteration and Fire Trap is evocation, for what it's worth.

I'm not sure what would happen if you had Resist Fire and tried opening one of the books. I think that if you're holding it, it should count as one of your possessions and get your protection.

[venger]

Aug 19, 2013 12:15:37 GMT -5 Ginger said:

I'm not sure what would happen if you had Resist Fire and tried opening one of the books.

Resist Explosives is a different spell that doesn't exist.

Aug 19, 2013 12:15:37 GMT -5 Ginger said:

I think that if you're holding it, it should count as one of your possessions and get your protection.

Regardless, there's no save vs. explosive runes and the runed item is destroyed automatically.

Think harder. Outside the box.

[Ginger]

With a scroll tube, we can try using There/Not There to get the scroll without opening the tube.

[Wolfgar]

According to the DMG:

Fire Trap: A dispel magic has the possibility to remove the fire trap. If it fails to do so, the trap is not affected and is not triggered.

According to the PHB:

[The explosive runes] can otherwise be removed only a dispel magic spell, and the explosives runes last until the spell is triggered.

It doesn't say anything about dispel magic triggering the explosion if it fails. I don't see any reason why we can't use repeated dispel magics until the spells are gone.

[venger]

As has been previously stated, (physically or magically) tampering with a (physical or magical) trap in the hopes of disarming it, and failing to do so, will trigger the trap.

The DMG seems to make an exception to this rule in the case of Fire Trap.

If you don't want to trigger a trap, don't go messing around with it.

[Friedrich]

What about Gabul? Did he come back from the wish? I suspect the answer's no but I'm sure, had Dan been there, he'd of asked.

[venger]

Pretty sure whoever made the wish wasn't considering Gabul.

In this case, the DM was rather generously going with the spirit over the letter of the wish.

[venger]

I'll give the party 5000XP per Mud Sorcerer book (30000XP total) if you can come up with the means to safely open them.

***I came up with a couple methods on the ride home after the session.

[Wolfgar]

You could open them within an Anti-Magic Shell. It prevents the function of any spells within its confines. I think the spell would still be in place when the Shell ended.

I don't think Minor Globe would work. I think it only works on spells cast/activated/detonated outside of the globe. If it did work then I could think of some nice application of area effect spells cast by a magic user surrounded by hostiles.

We could have Fizzi interrogate the dead Tzolo and have her instruct us on how to open them safely.

We could transform the books into something that is not destroyed by magical fire. Detonate the rune. Turn it back. I don't know any Book to X spells.

We could try hitting it with 6 dispel magics at the same time. Still a chance of failure. Get Fizzi to help.

If the Rune is on page 1, then you just skip that page.

Rods of Absorption and Cancellation could be useful.

I don't think the new Ioun stone would prevent the books from being destroyed but the user would be protected.