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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 9:11:35 GMT -5
Magic items are magic items. You've lost spellbooks, you've used up wands and scrolls. The libram of silver magic is one-shot only and you aren't even using it...
Not even mentioning all the miscellaneous non-weapon/armor magic items (technological stuff, belt of bear, ice beads, rings, list goes on and on,) that you've found that were usable by all classes.
Paavo is decked out in plate +1, +3 two-handed sword "with powers," potion of invulnerability at 6th level...
I just disagree with your whole premise.
If you want magic weapons and armor, kill things with magic weapons and armor. Or do something for the Church and get magic weapons from them. Didn't Delilah offer you guys some magic arms & armor too?
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 9:52:45 GMT -5
Magic items are not useful if they can't be used or can't be traded for useful magic items. Not all magic items are the same. But I am only talking about the lack of good items for the melee types. It is not like we are going to give a fighter the lightning wand or the armband. They need weapons they can use and armor to protect them from damage. And then maybe a nice ring or miscellaneous magic item so they can participate in the non-killing aspects of the adventure.
There are too many "cute" magic items. I would rather the magic weapons have come straight out of the DMG then trying to make them interesting. Who cares about whips that stun, morning stars that curse, unbreakable swords and maces that break shields. Ultralight armor and elven chain mail aren't even magic items. They are just well crafted. A shield that provides protection from magic but only when it is directed at the character. When was the last time magic missiles were shot at a fighter. I think any front line fighter would rather have a shield that provides protection in melee.
3 magic items at 6th level. You have got to be joking. A potion of invulnerability has got to be just about useless. It lasts for 5-20 rounds. Prevents creatures with 4 hit dice or less from hitting you. When was the last time we were in a melee with bugbears and needed help killing them.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 10:25:45 GMT -5
Paavo's +3 two-handed sword gives you a strength spell and can make a symbol of pain.
There's a +2 dragonslayer longsword which the longsword specialist doesn't have. Instead he has a choice of multiple +1 bastard swords.
Friedrich has an axe +2 vs enchanted creatures. Friedrich has an AC -8 against trolls and giants in his expensive dwarven-sized field plate. He has a shield of PfNM!!!
Ingrid has a +3 flail that gives her 2 attacks a round.
Marcus has a +1 broadsword and a new +X broadsword (that hasn't adversely affected him at all) and a shield that 100% blocks magic (lightning)bolts, rays and missiles. That's way more awesome than a +1 shield.
There are multiple suits of +1 platemail. There's a plethora of miscellaneous magic items that ANYONE can use.
I'm sorry the +3 warhammer I gave you is too valuable to risk. I'm sorry Colby didn't take Enchanted Weapon and make you guys a bunch of magic items with it.
Are YOU joking?
Invulnerability: This potion confers immunity to non-magical weapons and attacks from creatures with no magical properties (see CREATURES STRUCK ONLY BY MAGICAL WEAPONS) or with fewer than 4 hit dice. Thus, an 8th level character without a magical weapon could not harm the imbiber of an invulnerability potion. It further improves armor class rating by 2 classes and gives a bonus of +2 to the individual on his or her saving throws versus all forms of attack. Its effects are realized only when the entire potion is consumed, ond they last for 5-20 rounds. Only fighters can use this potion.
Immunity to non-magic weapons, +2 to AC, +2 to saves, immunity to creatures under 4HD?
I don't see the lack of magic weapons. I still disagree with you.
You guys missed out on weapons and armor from Damned John O'Crewet. You haven't even tried the sword or shield brooch.
Your 18(00) strength double specialized Thac0s are ridiculous, you mow down every opponent, you do HUGE damage. I suppose you could have a few more +1 shields but c'mon...
And I'll again refer you to the artificer's hammer.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 10:47:09 GMT -5
You'd really trade Shieldbreaker, Dead Sun Rising, Durendal, etc. for standard +1 weapons with no special powers? Ditto with the shields? That seems like a bad deal to me...
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 11:07:19 GMT -5
You'd really trade Shieldbreaker, Dead Sun Rising, Durendal, etc. for standard +1 weapons with no special powers? Ditto with the shields? That seems like a bad deal to me... One of our problems recently was having people without a weapon that could hurt vampires or gargoyles. Trommer doesn't need to do extra damage so much as he needs to be able to damage these beasts at all. That's not a concern anymore, now that I think everyone's got a magic weapon, but for a while it was an issue. Regarding shields, I think it just feels like in prior campaigns we had +1 shields coming out of our ears by 5th level and now no one has one. Protection from Normal Missiles is awesome, and if we run into bow wielding huntsmen, we'll thank you for the shield.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 11:14:05 GMT -5
No brainer on the weapons. The shields are nice but we would get a lot more use out of +1 shields. Of course if we had some +1 shields the fighters could choose when to use which shield.
The strength requires a solo kill. Not something Paavo excels at. I don't know if he had a single one in the castle of the silver princess. And it is not always enough to be beneficial. The symbol of pain is more likely to hurt us than them. I would trade Angvmar for a +2 bastard sword and +1 shield.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 11:51:32 GMT -5
In any case, Bolo thinks that right now we should focus on not dying from the hasted involuntary dancing. Any ideas? I can cast slow on all of us once I'm done Hideously Dancing, which will apparently be 2-5 rounds. I think and hope that the spell will safely counteract the haste and not require a system shock roll.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 11:52:11 GMT -5
I'm fine with Dead Sun Rising, Shieldbreaker and other such items being +1 equivalent. Except Durendal which would remain a +0 indestructable longsword for plot reasons.
Didn't realize the lack of +1 shields was such a hot button issue. I personally find vanilla +1 magic weapons/shields really boring.
If you want them though:
Find a trainer for Colby to learn a skill off DMG pgs 29-34 (blacksmith, armorer, weaponsmith1,2,3). Spend 2d6 days + 1d6+1x100GP and 1 language slot. Material costs: (sword +2 = 4000GP, shield +1 = 2500GP) Cast a strength spell to give Colby the ability to use the hammer. Cast (multiple) enchanted weapon/armor spell on the item. Use the permanency hammer.
And before you ask, if you want money, kill humanoids/trolls/giants for the big pay days. Or the ruins of ancient civilizations.
Finally something for fighters to spend money on!
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 11:54:58 GMT -5
I can cast slow on all of us once I'm done Hideously Dancing, which will apparently be 2-5 rounds. I think and hope that the spell will safely counteract the haste and not require a system shock roll. It's "Irresistably" Dancing and unfortunately, no, while Haste will counter a Slow without requiring a system shock roll, it does not work the other way around. But since you're outdoors, presumably spread out, and the spell was centered on Friedrich, in a mixed group of faeries, there's a good chance it will affect as many of them as you.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 12:00:22 GMT -5
More thoughts on weapons: You guys didn't take the suit of power-armor in the Vault of the Elders. There's a suit of unidentified magic chainmail in the party pool. Shaator's gifts - magic bastard sword, magic chainmail. "At the Anvil of the World the Forge of Heaven is Lit Arm Thyself with the Weapons of the Spheres" There are a bunch of fabulous swords that you could find with the crown of High Kings Some weapons, like Danakes' katana, may already be of suitable quality for enchanting.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 12:07:28 GMT -5
More thoughts on weapons: You guys didn't take the suit of power-armor in the Vault of the Elders. There's a suit of unidentified magic chainmail in the party pool. Shaator's gifts - magic bastard sword, magic chainmail. "At the Anvil of the World the Forge of Heaven is Lit Arm Thyself with the Weapons of the Spheres" There are a bunch of fabulous swords that you could find with the crown of High Kings Some weapons, like Danakes' katana, may already be of suitable quality for enchanting. Shaator's "gifts" were for Paavo only, and were evil, so they didn't seem especially gifty. We didn't separate the items from the chest, so I guess one could have been non-evil, but it seemed like an obviously bad temptation for Paavo to take a gift from a devil/demon/daemon lord. Where's the chain mail from and who has it now?
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 12:19:15 GMT -5
At this point I don't think we should change any of the magic items we have. This whole discussion is out of the fact that Paavo, Friedrich and Trommer got almost nothing in the magic item split this time around. If there had been more useful stuff for them we wouldn't be having it. BTW, there are some interesting comments on Haste by Gary here. Apparently the aging was added to discourage people from using Haste and Speed potions together. Since we don't allow multiple speed ups or slow downs, maybe we shouldn't use the aging.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 12:36:29 GMT -5
The chain mail is from the dragon horde. It is at Lord Sherlane's. It hasn't been identified since we assumed it just had a bonus which can't be identified.
We were kind of running for our lives in the Vault of the Elders. No time to grab hugely encumbering power armor.
Here is my next get-rich-quick plan. We put barrels in the back of the cart that is in the quantum box. We head for the Well of Life. We fill the barrels. We store it all in the quantum box. We return and sell the healing waters to the Baron.
Of we just go into the transport business. We offer to move ships filled with goods across isthmuses or up rivers. Or, once Colby can teleport, anywhere in the world in a fraction of the time.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 13:03:05 GMT -5
BTW, there are some interesting comments on Haste by Gary here. Apparently the aging was added to discourage people from using Haste and Speed potions together. Since we don't allow multiple speed ups or slow downs, maybe we shouldn't use the aging. I kind of like that Haste is only a last-ditch spell. I definitely think that when cast on an unwilling target it should require a save. Haste cast on a group of people is basically death sentence for one of them. Would invoking Kimball now help or hurt my case?
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 14:11:14 GMT -5
At this point I don't think we should change any of the magic items we have. This whole discussion is out of the fact that Paavo, Friedrich and Trommer got almost nothing in the magic item split this time around. If there had been more useful stuff for them we wouldn't be having it. Trommer has a ring of spell storing with a cure serious and a cure critical. Nobody even experimented with the sword/shield brooch which could be +5 for all you know. Glove of flame-fist in the off-hand? 36" dimension door ring? Bueller? Bueller? BTW, there are some interesting comments on Haste by Gary here. Apparently the aging was added to discourage people from using Haste and Speed potions together. Since we don't allow multiple speed ups or slow downs, maybe we shouldn't use the aging. Haste is absurdly powerful with no drawbacks. The chain mail is from the dragon horde. It is at Lord Sherlane's. It hasn't been identified since we assumed it just had a bonus which can't be identified. And the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd gathers dust in Sherlane's guest bedroom. We were kind of running for our lives in the Vault of the Elders. No time to grab hugely encumbering power armor. But you did have time to release the dooms-day femme-bot. Here is my next get-rich-quick plan. These never work out. Honest, hard work (killing ettins) is where the real money is. I definitely think that when cast on an unwilling target it should require a save. Haste cast on a group of people is basically death sentence for one of them. Would invoking Kimball now help or hurt my case? It's a nasty encounter. Pixies are pretty rough. No shame in a TPK... lol.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 14:37:22 GMT -5
Like I said. We left in a hurry before really distributing the magic items. If we hadn't done that Katrina fiasco and had been able to do the identification and accounting on the board before the session, then things would have gone much better. I am not blaming anyone. But we were all pretty worn down towards the end of the session. We should have just called it before leaving town but that would have been unsatisfying as well.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 15:04:22 GMT -5
I think we accomplished a bunch of stuff but yeah, accounting was a real drag on the session.
I want a better organizational system for PC wealth. I'd like to create a single document that lists the financial resources of the party & each individual character. including IOUs. We'll amend it as we go to avoid time-consuming Post-It note scavenging. Gems, jewelry, etc. will be assumed non-magical and their value included until shown otherwise. No more 53GP, 21SP Post-Its scattered all over the place.
Ideally I'd also like a master document for magic items and as the Post-It is traded or (hopefully) destroyed, the list is updated.
It may occasionally take some time in session to sync up the lists but it will save in the long run I feel.
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Post by Wolfgar on Feb 28, 2012 15:28:35 GMT -5
Sounds good to me. Are you thinking an online document or a physical ledger? Dana setup a google document account at one point. Not sure if it is still active.
Of course, Bolo may not care to have his wealth so well tracked.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 15:40:26 GMT -5
It would be an Excel spreadsheet printout that I'd keep updated. I'll start it with the character sheets I have and get the rest next session. Of course, Bolo may not care to have his wealth so well tracked. That's a fine time for Post-It notes.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 15:46:12 GMT -5
I don't mind post-its as much for physical items, but dealing with coins and gems is a drag. I vastly preferred the Company of the Blue Sun system when at the end of each sessions we'd get a posting of all the loot we'd accumulated along with the new experience totals. It's kinda fun makings post-its for all sorts of random stuff, only to discard half of them when they turn out non-valuable, but Colby has like 50 post-its, and I'd rather simplify.
I use Google Docs on a daily basis and it always warms my heart to see in my list the files "Assets at the Hall of the Blue Sun" and "Winthrop's Chest." Now we can replace Winthrop's Chest with our phase box/cart.
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Post by venger on Feb 28, 2012 15:51:12 GMT -5
I'd like to see items we're unsure of go on lists with other items we're unsure of, either on on those bigger Post-Its or, even better, on a notepad with some indicator of where/when it was found.
I'd like individual Post-Its to be reserved for identified magic items.
I think the additional organization will make sessions like last Sunday run a lot smoother.
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Post by Bolo on Feb 28, 2012 17:00:34 GMT -5
Colby has the luckblade. After using the wish, I think it's just a regular +1 short sword. Maybe it still grants the save bonuses, but I'm unsure. I have no idea what the Heartseeker is. I can't even find it in the DMG or UA, so I can't even guess. Now that Colby is well stocked with spells, I could give it up if someone else can make a case for using it better. I still get a x3 backstab which is useful in a pinch. Okay, here's my attempt at a case: Bolo is proficient with a short sword and can't use any larger type of sword. Usually in combat he uses his bow, but if we're fighting creatures who can only be hit by magic weapons, his backup plan until now has been his magic dagger. The dagger is cool, but even with a plus, it's only a dagger, and in any case with Bolo's 19 dex it's a waste to fight one-handed as he has no minus for using two weapons. So right now his plan for non-bow combat is the dagger in one hand, and on the other, the flaming gauntlet he just got. He gets the backstab x3 just like Colby does, and will be progressing to x4 in two levels from now, which Colby won't. He would be glad to swap the flaming gauntlet for the +1 short sword if Colby wants the gauntlet. (It's possible that the gauntlet actually does more damage than a +1 shortsword. Or not. I don't know. But somehow the big flaming hand thing doesn't seem to go with Bolo's personality.)
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 17:09:34 GMT -5
I don't believe you get a backstab in the offhand, but I'm not positive. Regarding weapon damage potential, a +2 dagger is actually better than a +1 short sword.
That said, a flaming hand would be badass and Colby is happy to trade.
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Post by Bolo on Feb 28, 2012 17:11:51 GMT -5
Glove of flame-fist in the off-hand? Precisely Bolo's plan, though he doesn't really have an "off" hand, per se. And like I was saying, he'd be happy to relinquish this if he can get a magic short sword instead. gathers dust in Sherlane's guest bedroom. Guest bedroom? Sorry, I said basement. My mistake. I see nothing about a Haste ability in the MM entry for pixies. Do we think (a) I have misread the MM, (b) these are a different kind of pixie that can Haste, or (c) there is something else here with them that's not a pixie?
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Post by Bolo on Feb 28, 2012 17:25:48 GMT -5
I'm in favor of the master list idea. It would be an Excel spreadsheet printout that I'd keep updated. I'll start it with the character sheets I have and get the rest next session. Google Documents does spreadsheets and would let us all refer easily to the list between sessions. But obviously this is your call, since you're the one volunteering to do the work. Do you want me to email you scans of the Bolo and Danakes character sheets, so you can include them too? Or just wait till next session? Of course, Bolo may not care to have his wealth so well tracked. Yes, Bolo likes to keep certain things to himself. But the DM says he's willing to exclude certain items from the public spreadsheet, so I believe Bolo's privacy concerns can be accommodated.
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Post by Bolo on Feb 28, 2012 17:35:26 GMT -5
I don't believe you get a backstab in the offhand, but I'm not positive. AIUI this is correct. Regarding weapon damage potential, a +2 dagger is actually better than a +1 short sword. Good point. But both at once is even better. That said, a flaming hand would be badass and Colby is happy to trade. Awesome. Let's do that, the next time we're alive and not dancing irresistibly.
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Post by Friedrich on Feb 28, 2012 21:40:48 GMT -5
Of course, Bolo may not care to have his wealth so well tracked. Yes, Bolo likes to keep certain things to himself. But the DM says he's willing to exclude certain items from the public spreadsheet, so I believe Bolo's privacy concerns can be accommodated. The party is going to have to choose between Friedrich and Bolo next session. OOC: Dan I like you personally. Bolo IS a parasite!!! And the problem is that Bolo has latched on to this party. I have read through several threads on DF on this subject and the general consensus, among DM's, that I've noticed, is that most of the time the DM will allow the players to get hosed for as long as THEY allow themselves to get hosed. In other words, its up to the party to stop this, not the DM. This is the approach that I think has been taken here. So now it's on us to stop it. I thought about things like interrogating people(Bolo) using the helm and scanning for magic items, but I would much prefer that Bolo just left. The bottom line is that he can't be trusted and is an ill fit for this party. Friedrich and Bolo have very different beliefs on party loyalty. We can role play this out if necessary. It would go something like this. 1) Friedrich asks Trommer to use the Helm of Telepathy and what he has found out (as he, by now has noticed Trommer using it while looking at Bolo all the time) 1a) If Trommer says no, Friedrich leaves the party. 1b) If he says yes, then Friedrich finds out for certain what he already suspected and puts the choice to the party; Friedrich or Bolo. It's long overdue. But Bolo had a hell of a run though! ;D www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41700&hilit=steal*+party+theifwww.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12983&hilit=steal*+party+theifwww.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46649&hilit=steal*+party+thiefwww.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45060&hilit=steal*+party+thief
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Post by Bolo on Feb 28, 2012 22:31:34 GMT -5
I believe we have determined that Trommer can't effectively read Bolo's thoughts with the helm of telepathy because Trommer doesn't speak halfling.
If that weren't the case, I would be suggesting that you consider how to react to another possibility: Friedrich discovers that his suspicions are totally unjustified.
Would it help if I responded to some of Friedrich's suspicions out of character? If so, please send me a PM or an email, in case others here would prefer to keep the situation ambiguous.
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Post by Friedrich on Feb 28, 2012 23:18:14 GMT -5
I don't know if PM's are fair to the rest of the group. I have read your post and I'd like nothing more then for this not to be an issue.
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Post by Ginger on Feb 28, 2012 23:21:22 GMT -5
There's absolutely no evidence that Bolo has stolen anything from the party, is there? Certainly not in character, and I don't even think their is out of character. Passing notes and ambiguity adds interesting variety to the game.
If you want to actually determine if anything's been stolen, cast detect lie. It's much more reliable than telepathy.
Furthermore, Finnious is a much more likely thief. Bolo is a charming, flamboyant thief. It's always the quiet ones you need to be watchful of. Also probably thieves who say not to worry about thieves, but that's neither here nor there.
Reading through those threads on DF, none of them seem remotely applicable to us.
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