Hireling Policy

[Ginger]

Now that we have Otto, a first level fighter hireling, and plan to fire Garvin and Frank, we need to establish a consistent personnel policy to use in the future. Is this sort of what we decided on?

Apprentice (All non-double specialized fighters and casters without third level spells): Take recovered funds, divide by the number of participants in the adventure. Apprentice members get 50% of this amount, the other half goes into the company fund to pay for their room and board, medical care, training, etc.

Partner (Double specialized fighters and spell casters with 3rd level spells): Recieves 100% of cut, and gets to pick in the magical item lottery.

Low level characters should be happy, because we'll buy them equipment, train them, and keep them alive while they go on cool adventures with bad-ass characters.

Higher level characters will be happy because they'll get a good cut of the loot, and they'll see that they're getting a better deal than people they're stronger than.

This doesn't work for theives, druids, monks, bow specialists or multi-class characters, since they don't fit neatly into out two parts. Fortunately, it's very unlikely we'd hire any more of these types.

[Dell]

I say that we let Dell make all the decisions.

Seriously though, I think that a time limit would be more flexible. Just say that after two or three months of adventuring with us, you're eligible to be a full partner. It's like a probationary period, where we see if they can work with us or not. With your method, too many character classes are left out. Like if Lee brings in a Barbarian - Barbarians (and Cavaliers) can't specialize. And multiclass characters would have to work twice as long, even though being multiclass allows them to contribute more to the group.

So, they fight with us for three months, and then they get full shares. If we find them reliable then we can grant them a full share earlier. If they suck, then we fire them. And if they're a Barbarian, then they're going to be backstabbed and buried in a ditch somewhere so quickly that it won't matter what kind of share we offer them.

I also think we should implement a bonus structure - the party member that we feel contributed the most to our success gets a bonus magic item, or extra cash, or something like that.

[liato]

My understanding is that all adventurers who fight get their own full cut (PC or NPC). Characters can hire hirelings to carry stuff and such but it comes out of their own cash and these are basically 0-level characters. If Raven wants to hire a shield-bearer or Dell wants to hire an apprentice it's out of their pocket. I don't want to get into the situation where we have characters of different status levels again.

Rangers are one of the slowest leveling classes, but even so Otto is going to catch everyone very quickly.

He'll be level 3 in about 3 adventures.

He's level 5 at 20,000 XP.

I believe I am the only characters that will even advance 1 level in that time (at our current rate that's about 6 to 8 adventures).

Otto has plenty of non-combat skills to make it worth paying him a full cut. Plus fighters are very equipment based classes so if he's got platemail and a magic weapon he'll be decent in combat right away. I believe he has a 17 Str right now. So by 3rd level he'll hopefully be in the 18s at 4th level with a str spell and double weapon specialization he could easily have better to hit rolls than Raven.

[Dell]

liato said:

My understanding is that all adventurers who fight get their own full cut (PC or NPC).

The DM said he was going by the book, and in the PHB it's recommended that NPC henchmen get half shares when treasure is split. Some part of the reasoning being that the PC is the one that houses, feeds, and equips the NPC, and also that he doesn't show much initiative - essentially, they do what the PC tells them.

But essentially, it's not that important. We just have to offer them something, and see what they accept. If we say to some 1st level chump "We'll buy you armor and weapons, and you get 10 gold a day while we're travelling, 1 gold a day while we're in town as a retainer, plus half a share of whatever goods we manage to salvage." I don't think they'd turn it down. Remember, half of a share from what we get is substantially more than they're going to be able to acquire on their own.

[Ginger]

liato said:

at 4th level with a str spell and double weapon specialization he could easily have better to hit rolls than Raven.

That's why at 4th level, he'll get a full cut.

At third level, he'll have a THAC0 of 18, a strength bonus of +1/+2 (assuming average ability rolls) and a specialization bonus of +1/+2. That gives him a modified THACO of 16, and he'd do d8+4 damage with a longsword. Raven has a THAC0 of 14 (not counting the magical sword) and does d8+1. Even if you ignore my huge death-dealing abilities with a bow, I'm still a noticeably better fighter.

Once he jumps to level 4, his strength bonus goes to +1/+3, his specialization bonus goes to +3+3, and his THAC0 drops to 17. That makes his effective THAC0 13, and his damage d8+6. That's a heck of a lot better. That makes him close enough to me in combat potential that I'd want to give him a standard split, even though I could still kill him in a fight without that much difficulty.

[Ginger]

What if someone was still at low level after 3 months? I don't want to give a full share to someone who's still basically cannon fodder. A non-double specialized fighter is just a guy who keeps the enemy busy while the rest of us get to work. A double specialized melee fighter will actually kick ass along with the rest of us. Do you guys remember how totally crappy Frank was until he got double specialized? He missed all the time.

Additionally, we wouldn't need to make exceptions when higher level people joined us temporarily. Everyone would know the policies, so the new guys and the old guys would understand why each was getting paid what he was. Second,

[Ginger]

Otto will level up much, much faster than another ranger we hire, because NPCs only get half of the XP we do. Additionally, NPCs are less likely to get a 10% bonus to XP because of their crappy stats. My way, Otto will be a full member of the company much faster than he would be if we waited 3 months.

I think that it's good to have a system that is deliberately slanted towards PCs, yet still objective. If don't give people a full share until they become powerful, it will help PCs, because they are naturally much more powerful. It also won't lead to problems with hireling favoritism. If we hire a new NPC fighter in Loftwick and Otto gets promoted much faster than him, he'll see that Otto is much stronger than him.

[Dell]

But he's not just about combat potential. Remember, if we're going back to the Dreadwood to fight gnolls and San, his Ranger skills will make him a great asset, as far as tracking and things.

So what we'll say is... after three months of travelling with us, you automatically get a full share, but if the majority agrees that you're a good member, then you can get your cut sooner.

[Ginger]

We should probably check through that calendar Dana created for us to check if 3 months is a good time frame. We've been adventuring for a little over a year and have fought 4 major campaigns vs. Sharkmen, Gnolls, Dred and Nerullites. If each of them was about 3 months, then that's probably a good mark to reevaluate our relationships.

[Dell]

We don't need more fighters, at this point. It looks like, with PC's alone, we have:

Raven - Kicks ass with bow and sword.
Otto - Melee specialist, tracking abilities
Liato - healer with some useful spells.
Winthrop - Fireball machine
Dell - some useful spells, thieving abilities

After we get our vacation done, Liato will have some hefty animals to do the fighter thing, and Dell will also be throwing Fireballs at things. So we'll be pretty well set for dealing damage. It's the soaking of the damage that we're weakest on, so if we hire anyone else, it'll be an NPC cleric.

[Ginger]

Dell said:

We don't need more fighters, at this point. It looks like, with PC's alone, we have:

Raven - Kicks ass with bow and sword.
Otto - Melee specialist, tracking abilities
Liato - healer with some useful spells.
Winthrop - Fireball machine
Dell - some useful spells, thieving abilities

After we get our vacation done, Liato will have some hefty animals to do the fighter thing, and Dell will also be throwing Fireballs at things. So we'll be pretty well set for dealing damage. It's the soaking of the damage that we're weakest on, so if we hire anyone else, it'll be an NPC cleric.

I think that we might want more two non-animal fighters, unless they're lions or something cool like that. Having Frank, Al, and Gordon always in the front was very, very nice. Shorter animals, like lions, are good because I can shoot arrows over them.

I also agree that we should get a dedicated cleric. Even with Liato healing us for 6-8 damage, the ability to convert spells to heals is really helpful.

[Dead Greyhawk]

You might want to get clear in your discussion what a hireling, a henchman, a NPC, and a PC are.

In my parlance, a hireling is somone who plans to travel with you for a specific short term job and then terminate any relationship with you. The drovers that brought your goods back from the Hall of the Blues Sun were hirelings. A guide to bring you from point A to point B is a hireling. These people require a minimum of 1 months pay upfront as a signing bonus and then regular payment for service.

A henchman is someone who plans to travel with you for a long term job and potentially continue a further relationship. Al was a case in point, where he intended to travel with you to Wrighters and beyond once you freed him from jail. These people expect 100 GP/level up front as a signing bonus, half shares of all treasure including magic items, and 100 GP/level/month in payment. Al, being rescued from jail, was a special case in that he didn't expect to be paid for a while, but probably after his death in the pirate lair, that would have been when he figured his debt to you was negated. When you made Al a member of the Company, he became an NPC.

An NPC is a character that travels with you for a purpose which may be short or long term in nature. Jeromal and his guards, Elohwin, Ironhand and Cash, the Pelorites, and Mazzini all fell in this category. They expect varying payment, ranging from nothing to full shares of everything, depending on the circumstances. Ironhand and Cash expected nothing. Mazzini expected a full share for the church. The Pelorites expected the evil Nerull artifacts and a tithe.

A PC is, of course, you all. What you expect is up to you. Stiffing PCs may mean they let you die in combat or kill you directly. They might refuse to help you, or steal, or lie. They may just grin and bear it. They may not care. PC actions are your actions, and setting a system up that PCs have reservations with is likely to cause significant strife.

So, with respect to what you currently have in the party, I'd say there are 5 PCs, a level 6 druid, a level 7 fighter, a level 6 mage, a level 5/6 mage/thief, and a level 2 ranger. You have 2 henchmen, a level 5 fighter and a level 5 cleric. You have no hirelings. You have one NPC, a dead level 5 fighter.

[liato]

Otto gets a full share right away. We need to make sure that all PCs get full shares right away whether their character dies or they start a new one or whatever.

There are game mechanics that require players to stay together and to adventure together. If we treat NPCs like crap they can leave the party. For a PC that means surrendering his character or leaving the game. I don't want any system where PCs aren't immediately full members.

Moreover, I think it's kind of crappy that we treat our NPCs so bad. I mean we're going to be kicking Frank and Garvin out. Frank is a GREAT tank and Garvin is at least a passable Cleric. We're kicking out a cleric and we NEED a cleric. I think it will be very obvious very quickly how important frank was, too.

I think the system for NPCs needs to be that we, as a group, make a decision about whether or not we want to have this member join the party for a full share or not. If we agree to give them a full share and then they suck (which they never do) we can kick them out after the adventure.

At this point all the PCs have some pretty nice equipment. Most of the training costs are over for the high level characters. It is going to be a long time before anyone levels up again. So we don't even need cash or equipment or training really.

Let's stop being so stingy about money and items and start trying to get things that might have a more important effect like positive reputation. All that ever happens to our money and items is that they get stolen from us anyway.

If we had a nice positive reputation maybe the mayor of a town would let us store our items in his vault, for example. Don't you think a mayor might like the idea that a group of heroes who go around killing nerullites, stopping smugglers, and fighting demons will periodically be stopping by his town to swap out equipment?

And if we donated interesting items to the local temples and wizards guilds then maybe they'd be more inclined to give us good stuff when they came by it. "Sorry we don't have any ink or pearls...Oh wait, it's the guys from Morningstar security. Why didn't you tell me?! Sure, there's some ink we were saving for the accolytes but they're a bunch of dunderheads. How much do you need?"

If people in town know and like us then we're a heck of a lot safer from enemies. If we're worried that people who want to kill us will be able to ask around and find out information about us then it's important that the people they are asking like us. If we are good patrons at an inn and someone shady comes in and asks about us maybe the innkeeper will TELL US that people are looking for us and describe him. Then we can get the jump on him for a change.

We end up spending half our money trying to keep people from stealing the other half of our money. Seems like a waste to me.

[Dell]

We can give Otto a full share, but it will probably really piss off Frank and Garvin unless we spin it right. That's the only problem I have with that proposal, otherwise it's fine with me. Of course, if he's getting *magical* armor from us right off the bat, he may start off with a little debt to work off.

We are perpetually low on cash, though. Right now, Liato and Dell both need training. Winthrop only needs ~15,000 xp for 7th level, where he can start dropping the big fat sack of 4th level magic on the bad guys. I think Winthrop's training costs were the reason we pooled the funds in the first place...

And that hypothetical situation you mention, where we have a good reputation? Monmorg. They love us in Monmorg. If we go there, Elmo will make copies of all the spells we have, so if when Winthrop loses his spellbook again, we can go back there and get them re-copied for only the cost of the ink and book - not the rip-off prices that TSO charges for spells.

Hell, in Saltmarsh, all youu have to do is say you know one of the guys in the Blue Sun, and you get free blowjobs. Also, a pie is placed upon the windowsill for you to steal. It's just in Longspear that we've been doing shoddy work - or not properly publicising our good work, rather.

[Ginger]

Dell said:

And that hypothetical situation you mention, where we have a good reputation? Monmorg. They love us in Monmorg. If we go there, Elmo will make copies of all the spells we have, so if when Winthrop loses his spellbook again, we can go back there and get them re-copied for only the cost of the ink and book - not the rip-off prices that TSO charges for spells.

In case you've forgotten, we were kicked out of towngently asked to leave Monmorg by the authorities. A lot of crazy stuff went down in Monmorg with Rocoba. We need to ensure that things have cooled off sufficiently before we go back there.

[Dell]

Yes, they did want us to get out of town while things were a little chaotic... but the head of the wizards guild likes us, and the Duke likes us, and we never fireballed any orphans there. Nor did we spend time in jail.

[Ginger]

Additionally, maybe we can trade spells or magical items with Elmo. Maybe they'll want the ring of human influence back.

[Dell]

You have no idea how badly I want elmo's Wand of Polymorph. Let's just say that if he doesn't give it up, I may have the opportunity to use my thief skills.

[Dell]

Well, since the DM is going to be enforcing the hireling rules, it's going to cost us 500 gp per month for Frank and Garvin. If they're recieving a salary like that, then they shouldn't get a full share of the treasure in addition to that.

So is that the distinction? Hirelings get a salary (100gp per level) + half share of recovered goods + whatever magical items we decide to give them. PCs/NPCs get a full share + their choice of item - or the chance to roll if we can't agree on a fair distribution?

It's good for the hirelings because if we go on a mission and don't recover any loot, they still get paid. If they want even shares, then they get no salary. It seems fair enough.

[Ginger]

I don't know if that works out, since PCs are also supposed to go through 100 GP per level per month. Those are just added to the room and board expenses. We can't tell our henchmen that they get half shares because of their 100 GP per level per month fee, and we get full shares even though we have the same overhead.

[Dell]

No hirelings = no problems. We rule.