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Post by Bolo on Dec 18, 2011 23:18:17 GMT -5
Does Marcus have enough room to attack the daemon from the side where Trommer is? Or does he need to come at it from the other side once the night hag has been dispatched? If the latter, should he attack the hag himself, or should he wait for Danakes to take her out with silver arrows? Or is there room for him to go after her without blocking Danakes's shot?
Am I right to assume that Bolo has no conceivable bow shot on the night hag from his current position, with Paavo, Trommer, and the daemon all in the way? (I think I know the answer to this one.)
Returning to the subject of webs ... What would happen if Web is cast on the space between the blade barrier and the wall, where the daemon and the nighthag are standing? If they make their magic resistance rolls (which the daemon certainly will, and the night hag probably will) does that mean that the Web spell has failed completely, or are they just deemed to be standing freely in a void in the web, as when making an ordinary saving throw?
If the answer is a void in the web, then suppose Trommer is outside the web and attacks the daemon. (a) Is this geometry for the web even possible in the current position? (b) If it is, would the daemon be considered immobilized for that attack, as in the house rule quoted above? And if so, would that outcome be good or bad for us, given the risk of Trommer's sword getting stuck in the web?
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Post by venger on Dec 19, 2011 0:45:43 GMT -5
There is no room for Marcus on that board.
There is no bowshot through that melee.
Magic resistance means the web does not exist for them, they are completely unaffected and anyone attacking through the web will run the risk of losing their weapon.
As long as the web is anchored on two points it can go anywhere.
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 19, 2011 12:58:54 GMT -5
I was picturing the blade barrier as many swords whirling in each 5' square, so many that anything entering is automatically struck by 8 of them. Web will not indefinitely counter telekinesis and by round 3 the telekinesed object will start moving through the web at its strength equivalent. 6000GP weight is the strength equivalent of a frost giant and that would then tear through the web at 1' per segment... Would you get a save vs. the web if being telekinesed into it? If you made that save would you then end up in the blade barrier? I'm thinking you would be trying to become entangled in the web at that point and there'd be no save.. I like to think of the blade barrier as more like a bunch of buzz saws spinning in place. Like some sort of giant paper shredder. Definitely not something you want to get pushed into. With the web I would say there is no need for a savings throw if you are moving into it. You just apply the rules for moving through it. I made some calculations to figure out what the force applied to the object must be in order to get the doubling speed quoted in the spell description. Note that since the speeds don't vary with the mass of the object the force that is being exerted is like gravity (increasing with the mass of the object). The equations I derived are (Dan please check my math): s(t) = 20 feet * ( 2 t/60 second - 1 ) v(t) = s'(t) = 20 feet * ( ln(2)/60 second ) * 2 t/60 seconda(t) = v'(t) = 20 feet * ( ln(2)/60 second ) 2 * 2 t/60 secondAfter 10 rounds you max out. At this point the acceleration would be 2.7 feet/second/second which is only about 9% the strength of gravity (32 feet/second/second). So if you are stuck in the web, telekinesis will not be strong enough to push you through it or out of it. But if you are already at high speeds then your momentum should carry you through it.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 19, 2011 17:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by Bolo on Dec 19, 2011 17:19:27 GMT -5
Your math is correct. But I no longer think it's possible to think coherently about this spell from the starting point that it's governed by the laws of physics. For example, the maximum horizontal acceleration after 10 rounds is only about 8% as strong as gravity (or 25% outdoors). And yet, for upward vertical motion, the same phenomenon is able to overcome the force of gravity in the very first round. My best attempt at a coherent mental model for Telekinesis is a continuous version of teleportation. The target of the spell is moved continuously from place to place to place, but not by a force in the sense of F=ma. It just disappears from one place and reappears in another, continuously, according to a bizarre set of laws of telekinetic motion that are completely independent of Newtonian mechanics. I can't really reconcile this with the fact that ordinary forces can resist telekinesis, and I have no idea what it ought to imply for telekinetic motion through a web. Against all my instincts, I'm at a point where magic is just magic, and it works however the DM and/or the rules say it does, whether that comports with how a superficially similar nonmagical phenomenon would work in the real world, or not.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 19, 2011 17:28:17 GMT -5
Query for the DM: Is it possible on this layout for Bolo to squeeze past Paavo to a position where he can grab the back of Trommer's belt with one hand and the back of Paavo's belt with the other? If so, how long would this maneuver take and would it require a dex check?
I presume that the combined weight of Trommer and Paavo and Bolo and all their stuff is over 600lb, so long as Bolo's strength is sufficient to hold on.
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Post by venger on Dec 19, 2011 18:33:44 GMT -5
The mathematics and speculative physics, while interesting, are unnecessary. I understand you want to interpret this in some fashion that makes scientific sense but this is like Star Trek style cargo bay anti-grav gun technology and you aren't going to come up with a formula that solves this magic. Consider this: Telekinesis is an invisible force that lifts things <6000GP weight and moves them. It is applying no more or less force on the object at a movement rate of 2" than it is at a movement rate of 1024". The invisible force, capable of lifting 6000GP weight, simply moves faster. If Trommer came along and picked up a rock and moved it 2" the first round, 4" the second round and 8" the third round it's the exact same effect as the spell. If he was capable of moving 1024" a round he'd carry the rock that far and, as a consequence, both he and the object would be moving very fast. Again, Telekinesis is not throwing the object or propelling it like a rocket. It's an invisible scoop of force that lifts and moves, like a crane or a wheelbarrow. Query for the DM: Is it possible on this layout for Bolo to squeeze past Paavo to a position where he can grab the back of Trommer's belt with one hand and the back of Paavo's belt with the other? If so, how long would this maneuver take and would it require a dex check? A dexterity check modified by Friedrich's insane action. One round to get into position, then one round to grab on which may require a touch attack depending on Paavo's insane action.
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 19, 2011 19:08:11 GMT -5
It is not a question of physic or magic. In order to get from 2"/round to 4"/round, you have to accelerate. My formula provides the acceleration as a function of time. It turns out to be very small. That means that the magical invisible scoop does not exert much force as it moves an object along. Just because you have a notion of how you want telekinesis to work does not mean that the text supports it.
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Post by venger on Dec 19, 2011 20:34:05 GMT -5
**EDIT**
Eh, fine. I don't even want to argue about this spell any more. There are so many things in D&D that defy the laws of physics, I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point.
How does this calculation jive with that fact that by round 4 the telekinetic force is greater than the motive power of a creature? This is why I believe it will break through the Web at this point.
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Post by venger on Dec 19, 2011 20:57:44 GMT -5
Friedrich moves at a 6"
Colby moves at a 12"
The Telekinesis moves at a 2", 4", 8", etc.
They all exert different force on the Web, completely unrelated to their movement rate.
That's my problem with your math.
If the strength equivalent (frost giant) was moving at a 2", 4", 8" etc. would it not be exerting enough force to move through the Web???
Something that strong, but slow, should be moving through the Web 1/6 of 1' per segment in round one, 1/3 of 1' per segment in round 2, etc.
600lbs of pushing power, moving at a 2" or a 1024" is still 600lbs of pushing power.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 19, 2011 21:32:46 GMT -5
Try the teleportation analogy. There's no calculation in Newtonian mechanics that can make sense of teleportation in terms of speed and acceleration and forces. One moment you're here, and the next moment you're over there. Try thinking of telekinesis as that, but differentiable.
If that doesn't work for you, imagine that the spell was created by a fiendishly brilliant magician with an obsessive hatred of physicists. He intentionally designed the spell's behavior to follow none of the usual laws of nature, specifically so that we would be annoyed and frustrated. Somewhere, in another plane of existence, he is reading this forum and cackling maniacally to himself at the success of his plan.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 19, 2011 21:51:12 GMT -5
600lbs of pushing power, moving at a 2" or a 1024" is still 600lbs of pushing power. Think of pushing a stalled car 20' in a minute. Not impossible. Now think of carrying a car 20' vertically up a ladder. Impossible. If the spell is indifferent between these, then it is. But if it is, we're just going to keep tying ourselves in knots if we try to make it obey the laws of physics. The spell's 600lb "pushing power" isn't a force, it doesn't work like a force, and the acceleration it produces doesn't follow F=ma because there isn't an F. There's a bizarro magical "pushing power" that works in a completely different way.
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 19, 2011 22:57:54 GMT -5
How does this calculation jive with that fact that by round 4 the telekinetic force is greater than the motive power of a creature? This is why I believe it will break through the Web at this point. It is not even close to the motive power of a creature. A sprinter will cover 100 meters in 10 seconds. That is almost 2000 feet in a minute. The force necessary to get someone going at their top speed is much more than is used exploring a dungeon. The force you are going to exert moving through a web is going to be your whole strength. Friedrich moves at a 6" Colby moves at a 12" The Telekinesis moves at a 2", 4", 8", etc. They all exert different force on the Web, completely unrelated to their movement rate. That's my problem with your math. If the strength equivalent (frost giant) was moving at a 2", 4", 8" etc. would it not be exerting enough force to move through the Web??? Something that strong, but slow, should be moving through the Web 1/6 of 1' per segment in round one, 1/3 of 1' per segment in round 2, etc. 600lbs of pushing power, moving at a 2" or a 1024" is still 600lbs of pushing power. The constant movement rate for Friedrich or Trommer are simply how quickly they can walk. It has nothing to do with the amount of work they are doing or the force they are exerting. Telekinesis doesn't involve muscles contracting and expanding. It has a simple rule for the distance covered each round. That rule can be written using an exact mathematical formula. From that you can derive the acceleration of, and the force being exerted on, an object. The 600 lbs of pushing power, as you say, is a canard. The spell provides no mechanism for more pushing power to accelerate things faster. A 15th level magic user and 10th level magic user are going to move 100lbs at the same rate and with the same force. You should just consider the mass of the object being moved and the current acceleration to determine the force being exerted. For comparison, a sprinter typically takes 4 seconds to reach his maximum velocity of 20 mph. Assuming a constant acceleration that corresponds to a acceleration of 7.3 feet/second/second. This is 23% of the force of gravity. So a runner trying to move as hard as possible exerts a force that is more than twice the force exerted by telekinesis at its maximum.
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Post by venger on Dec 19, 2011 23:55:13 GMT -5
600lbs of pushing power, moving at a 2" or a 1024" is still 600lbs of pushing power. Think of pushing a stalled car 20' in a minute. Not impossible. Now think of carrying a car 20' vertically up a ladder. Impossible. If the spell is indifferent between these, then it is. But if it is, we're just going to keep tying ourselves in knots if we try to make it obey the laws of physics. The spell's 600lb "pushing power" isn't a force, it doesn't work like a force, and the acceleration it produces doesn't follow F=ma because there isn't an F. There's a bizarro magical "pushing power" that works in a completely different way. That analogy is kinda broken. Telekinesis can magically move an object that weighs 600lbs, horizontally or vertically, with the same ease as it can move something that weighs 1lb. It's magic. Don't worry about how it moves, or how much force it takes to move it, or how gravity works on it. Imagine anti-gravity fields and frictionless planes, or little flying monkeys that push and pull. The spell description doesn't say and it doesn't matter. The 600 lbs of pushing power, as you say, is a canard. The spell provides no mechanism for more pushing power to accelerate things faster. A 15th level magic user and 10th level magic user are going to move 100lbs at the same rate and with the same force. I agree with this as an interpretation of the spell description and might revise my position. But I don't agree with the rest of your conclusions. None of the characters can "sprint" at 2000'/round, mechanically. The same way it was pointed out they can't play Major League baseball. I'm defining the movement rate of Telekinesis in the same sense as any movement rate in the game. Most everything is based off the understanding that movement in D&D follows certain base rules on a certain scale. We don't determine rate of acceleration when a player goes from a normal move to a charge or any number of examples I can't think of right now. I believe the Web spell (area of effect, movement reduction, etc) and most spells are based off these fundamental AD&D rules of movement/scale/etc. We don't calculate the motive force behind a Fly spell. It just flies you at 12"/round. What happens when that hits a Web? We have to be careful about house-ruling the game into some precise real-life simulator. Pretty sure down that path madness lies.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 20, 2011 14:00:51 GMT -5
Think of pushing a stalled car 20' in a minute. Not impossible. Now think of carrying a car 20' vertically up a ladder. Impossible. That analogy is kinda broken. Telekinesis can magically move an object that weighs 600lbs, horizontally or vertically, with the same ease as it can move something that weighs 1lb. It's magic. Don't worry about how it moves, or how much force it takes to move it, or how gravity works on it. Imagine anti-gravity fields and frictionless planes, or little flying monkeys that push and pull. The spell description doesn't say and it doesn't matter. Actually, that's precisely the point I was trying to make with my broken analogy. But can it be flying angels, please, instead of monkeys? Then it would be the same as how the planets move in their interlocking crystal spheres.
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jan 2, 2012 19:43:28 GMT -5
As a side note about this rather interesting telekinesis thread, I think you should formally think of the force from round to round being, for a very small period of time, infinite. I mean, by the book, you go from a velocity of x to 2x at the beginning of each subsequent round of concentration. I think this step-function in velocity is equal to infinite acceleration at the transition, and so would be infinite force during the moment of transition. I think you could take this analogy too far, like claiming you should crush things that are placed against stone for two rounds, but in terms of pushing through a web or a net, I think you'd go through it unless it was pretty resilient. YMMV.
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Post by Wolfgar on Jan 2, 2012 22:49:57 GMT -5
The spell description only indicates what the movement (distance covered) each round is. It doesn't say that the velocity is constant. I think it is more reasonable for the velocity to gradually increase as a result of a time dependent force rather than infinite acceleration spikes. The formulas I provided earlier would give the instantaneous velocity and acceleration under such an assumption.
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Post by Bolo on Jan 3, 2012 23:42:03 GMT -5
I've got another way to think about the telekinesis spell. Previously, some of us have assumed that the "speed limits" result from a limit on the telekinetic force that the spellcaster can apply. Instead, suppose that they result from a limit on the spellcaster's ability to maintain mental concentration on a moving object.
This would explain why the limits on horizontal speed and vertical speed are the same, even though vertical motion requires considerably more force (to counter the opposing force of gravity). IMHO it would also be a better explanation of why speeds aren't dependent on mass.
If interpreted this way, the spell description no longer says much (if anything) about the maximum possible telekinetic force, when that force is being opposed by something else, such as a web.
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Post by agesilaus on Jan 5, 2012 21:08:58 GMT -5
Hello all, when do we play next? I had a computer crash and lost all my email contacts. Oy.
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Post by venger on Jan 6, 2012 9:38:55 GMT -5
I will email the schedule and redetermine availability - I think the next session was going to be the 15th.
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Post by Wolfgar on Jan 12, 2012 10:49:37 GMT -5
As a side note, I don't think we have been playing with the rule (DMG p. 129) that rings don't always work for dwarves, gnomes and halflings. There is a 20% chance of malfunction on each use. It could be unfortunate (though likely highly amusing) if Bolo can't disappear the next time he needs to.
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Post by venger on Jan 12, 2012 12:27:34 GMT -5
I've never been a big fan of that rule and it seems somewhat penalizing considering how awesome magic rings are.
Also why not any worn magic items?
Basically I want my hobbits wearing magic rings.
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Post by agesilaus on Jan 15, 2012 15:24:33 GMT -5
Hi all, if we'd been playing today (Jan. 15) I'm afraid I couldn't have made it. Sorry. When's the next game set?
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Post by Friedrich on Jan 15, 2012 20:27:06 GMT -5
What's up Fin! We played today. Lot's of fighting and nobody died. Our next session is next week.
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Post by Wolfgar on Jan 17, 2012 22:59:00 GMT -5
So we have been in better shape: -Trommer, Paavo and Dan are barely conscious. -Paavo and Friedrich are having bouts of insanity. -Ingrid and Friedrich are at death's door. -Colby is possessed (magic jarred?) by the ultra daemon. -the spell casters are pretty much tapped spell-wise. -Bolo has lost his bow. -we are getting low on healing waters. (so much for an unlimited supply of healing.)
Is the plan to continue until we clear the dungeon or are wiped out? Is there any reason to rest? We are going to need at least 4 days to get Ingrid well enough to travel.
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Post by Ginger on Jan 18, 2012 11:41:03 GMT -5
Colby is totally fine! Maybe Paavo's been possessed and is spreading disinformation and trying to deflect attention.
Colby still has another magic missile, a slow, and several nasty spells on scrolls. That's in addition to all the spellbooks and stuff we just found here.
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Post by Friedrich on Jan 18, 2012 16:16:46 GMT -5
So did we get any XP this week and didn't you say that you were going to post the loot we pulled. Im impatient!!!
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