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Post by Bolo on Dec 15, 2011 22:55:18 GMT -5
Maybe Colby could Web around the blade barrier to disrupt that ability. I read right past this suggestion the first time through. How high are the ceilings in this room? If they are the standard 10', then a web of 8 cubic inches, anchored top and bottom, could fill the entire volume of the blade barrier, with a 4'-thick wall of web to spare on each side. I like this. Not that it will be hard for the daemon to light the web, with his wall of fire ability and all. |
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Post by venger on Dec 15, 2011 23:09:05 GMT -5
The Grand Hall of the Silver Princess has 20' ceilings, supported by those two pillars in the center of the room.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 15, 2011 23:17:04 GMT -5
The Grand Hall of the Silver Princess has 20' ceilings, supported by those two pillars in the center of the room. Then a web of 8 cubic inches, anchored top and bottom, would exactly fill the volume of the blade barrier, with nothing to spare around the edges. Nice. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 16, 2011 8:27:55 GMT -5
I think the Web is the best solution to the blade barrier. If nothing else it will slow the daemon down while he neutralizes it. Hopefully then Trommer and Marcus can get in there. A Haste spell would also be useful to give our fighters the additional attacks.
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Dec 16, 2011 8:34:03 GMT -5
I will suggest something I had been considering at the last session, which is to drop my shield and drive my unbreakable sword into the ground next to the daemon. Then hold on to it with my off hand as an anchor against the telekensis . That should allow me to continue my attacks for a couple rounds before I probably would have to use both hands to hold on. That might allow enough damage to be done to convice the daemon to leave or perhaps kill it.
I was waiting to see if anyone else caught the "recent" Dragonsfoot thread about the topic of Telekenisis started by some Apprentice person. The consensus is TPK. A suggestion was made there about using a sword as an anchor. I had thought of using Durandal at the last session since it should survive the crushing blow but the session ended before I had to decide to attack twice and then do it or anchor first.
The other thought which was also suggested was to run:)
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Dec 16, 2011 8:36:25 GMT -5
Happy Birthday Chris! May your shadow find you!
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 16, 2011 10:54:53 GMT -5
Paavo could try the Symbol of Pain from his sword (next time he is lucid). The daemon would still have a 50% MR (110% - 35% (8th level spell) - 25% (spell cast at 16th level)) to it. But if it did work then the deamon would be in too much pain to concentrate on using telekinesis. Of course everyone else would also be effected.
I don't think you can drive a sword into stone even if it is unbreakable. But you could grab someone who weighs 250 lbs and use them to anchor you assuming you weigh 350 lbs.
Running would have been a good option right after the limited wish.
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Post by venger on Dec 16, 2011 11:39:17 GMT -5
Yeah, that thread on Dragonsfoot is all kinds of awesome. I would never bet against you guys in any encounter though.
Ramming Durendal into the ground would entitle him to a bend bars roll, sure.
Out of curiosity just what is the party's expectation about the effectiveness of a Web (2nd level) cast into a Blade Barrier (6th level)? I haven't given it too much thought just yet.
And Happy Birthday Chris!
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 16, 2011 12:35:12 GMT -5
The blades will definitely cut the web. However I think of the blade barrier as a relatively thin wall. So there should still be web on either side of the barrier assuming that the anchoring surfaces of the web are perpendicular to the barrier. For instance if the blade barrier was cast in a horizontal place and the web went from floor the ceiling then the web would effectively be cut in two with each area losing a second required surface.
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Post by venger on Dec 16, 2011 14:06:51 GMT -5
So once the web is cut what is anchoring its two halves?
This blade barrier is cast horizontally and fills an area 20'x20'x3'. The web is cast vertically from floor to ceiling, filling that area. The web is cut in half by the blade barrier, the lower section falling to the ground and the upper section dangling from the ceiling above the barrier? Is that correct?
(3' being the length of the blades)
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 16, 2011 14:31:56 GMT -5
As I imagine it, the web just collapses/shrinks in on itself. For a horizontal barrier the web would need to be attached to the walls to effectively block entry into the barrier.
Where exactly is the barrier in the room? Anyone got a picture of the current situation?
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Post by venger on Dec 16, 2011 15:02:46 GMT -5
It's a horizontal plane, 20'x20'x3', directly in front of the dais.
There are pictures but I don't have them.
Any portion of the web which touches the blade barrier will be completely shredded but I think you could still anchor it in a way that is useful in this situation.
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 16, 2011 15:10:12 GMT -5
And how far off the ground is it? Note according to the DMG if you are initially in the area of effect you get a savings throw to avoid taking damage. Like a web or stinking cloud you are pushed to the side if there is space.
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Post by Friedrich on Dec 16, 2011 15:57:35 GMT -5
What about freezing the blade barrier with one of those ice beads if there are any left? At least it could encase it in a block of ice that would keep us out of it. And yes I saw that crazy guy Apprentice and some even crazier dude named, uummm.... Winthrop on DF posting in this thread!! That Apprentice guy (whoever he may be?) was even talking about starting a thread called "my party vs the ultrodaemon" or something like that... |
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Post by venger on Dec 16, 2011 17:54:09 GMT -5
And how far off the ground is it? Note according to the DMG if you are initially in the area of effect you get a savings throw to avoid taking damage. Like a web or stinking cloud you are pushed to the side if there is space. I'm going to say it is 2' off the ground to give the 3' blades room to rotate. That's how I ruled it and everybody who saved was displaced out of the area of effect. What about freezing the blade barrier with one of those ice beads if there are any left? At least it could encase it in a block of ice that would keep us out of it. The blades would destroy the ice very quickly. |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 16, 2011 20:30:21 GMT -5
Out of curiosity just what is the party's expectation about the effectiveness of a Web (2nd level) cast into a Blade Barrier (6th level)? I was assuming (or at least hoping) that the magical blades would get stuck in the gluey mess of the web, without cutting it. But I have no particular basis for thinking that, so I guess I wouldn't call it an expectation. It's a good point that 6 > 2. Do we have a precedent for how that works with other conflicting spells of different levels? The spell description of Web talks about breaking a web with strength, and about flammability, but its only mention of blades is that a magic flaming sword can cut through the strands "as a hand brushes away cobwebs". When we've been in webs in the past, I've assumed that cutting our way out is not an option. Is there precedent about that? Will any blade cut a web? Will any magical blade cut a web? If not, how is a blade that's part of a barrier different from a magical sword or dagger? Blade Barrier is a 6th level spell. What level spell is required to create a magical weapon? From the PHB, it looks like at least Enchant an Item (6th) plus Permanency (8th). |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 16, 2011 23:47:57 GMT -5
Let me take another stab at this question, after some dinner and a little more thinking. One of the things I learned from the Telekinesis discussion is that the answer you get depends on the framework you start with. I can see multiple starting points:
(a) Close parsing of the rules. If I start with the PHB description of the Web spell, I conclude that webs are affected by strength and fire but not by blades (except fiery blades). I would like the spell description to include an explicit statement about that, but it doesn't. I would like there to be a clear rule about resolving apparent conflicts between spells of different levels, but so far as I know, there isn't. On this basis, I would say that the blades should get stuck in the sticky goo of the web, and the web should survive unscathed.
(b) Comparable phenomena in books and movies. This perspective is clearly important for our DM. Sting cuts through Shelob's web in LOTR, but I don't consider that a very strong comparison. What else?
(c) In-game precedent. I don't know of a specific precedent for webbing a blade barrier. I had assumed that there was clear precedent for blades not being able to cut webs in other situations, but I guess can't recall actually trying it in this group, with either a regular blade or a magical one. So maybe that's is a weaker argument than I thought it was. If the blade barrier does turn out to cut the web, though, I would expect that to be a precedent that at least some magical blades can cut webs. Potentially useful the next time we don't want to light ourselves on fire.
(d) How the rule "should" work. Here's where I think it makes sense to say that blades trump webs because one is 6th level and the other is only 2nd. That sort of rule just sounds logical, even if I can't point at it. But how does it actually work mechanically? The higher level spell always wins? The two spells roll off, with a modifier based on the level difference? Is it just a factor to consider in a judgement call by the DM? Does the caster's level matter too?
(e) Analogy. What are some good analogies of spell versus spell? I'm struggling a bit here as I'm not very familiar with the possible spells. Are the sticky hands and feet produced by Spider Climb sufficient to keep one on the floor against Telekinesis? In answering that question, does it matter that Spider Climb is only level 1, whereas Telekinesis is level 5? Will an Audible Glamer cast by a high-level MU who can make it really loud disrupt the casting of a spell that has a verbal component? In answering that question, does it matter whether the potentially disrupted spell is higher or lower in level than Audible Glamer (level 2).
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Post by Bolo on Dec 16, 2011 23:51:13 GMT -5
I don't think you can drive a sword into stone even if it is unbreakable. The main floor of the room is stone. Is the dais also stone? |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 0:12:01 GMT -5
It's a horizontal plane, 20'x20'x3', directly in front of the dais. There are pictures but I don't have them. I took some pictures, but I need to find the thingy that connects my camera to my PC. I'll work on that tomorrow. Should I know where the 3' height of the blade barrier comes from? Is it just the length of a typical sword blade? Or am I missing something in one of the books? If the bottom of the blade barrier is 2' off the ground, can one crawl under it safely? Can Bolo, who is only 2'10" tall, crouch down enough that he can actually walk or run under it safely? (Safely, here, being a very relative term.) Does the wall of whirling, flashing blades block line of sight? |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 0:28:14 GMT -5
Paavo could try the Symbol of Pain from his sword (next time he is lucid). The daemon would still have a 50% MR (110% - 35% (8th level spell) - 25% (spell cast at 16th level)) to it. But if it did work then the daemon would be in too much pain to concentrate on using telekinesis. Of course everyone else would also be effected. My gut says that a conventional attack on the daemon would be a better use of your next lucid round. If any of us are going to survive this, we need offense even more than we need defense. For the same reason, putting Trommer and Marcus at -4 to hit would be a Very Bad Thing. Speaking of Marcus, does he have a +2 weapon? If not, what are our chances of persuading him to grab one from Paavo or Friedrich? |
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Post by venger on Dec 17, 2011 9:05:40 GMT -5
In reverse order:
Marcus, as before, intended to use the rod of flailing but I am happy to let the party decide his course of action.
The blade barrier does not obstruct line of sight.
As I imagine it the blades of the blade barrier are scimitar length (3'). They flash and whirl on a fixed point a couple feet off the ground so as not to constantly strike the floor. There is no room underneath the blade barrier due to the length of the blades.
RE: web vs. blade barrier-
The blades will cut the webs. My reasoning as follows:
There is established precedent by which one may cut free something or someone entangled by webs.
Not all of the razor-sharp blades will be entangled as I don't know how many there are and cannot roll individual savings throws for each them.
Finally, I am reminded that when a web is inconvenient to the party the blade barrier inexplicably throws off sparks and find myself strangely less receptive to these arguments.
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 9:12:35 GMT -5
There is established precedent by which one may cut free something or someone entangled by webs. OK. I didn't realize this. Don't I remember that recently we set a web on fire to free ourselves? Was that just for speed? Or to clear line of sight in a hallway? |
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Post by venger on Dec 17, 2011 9:49:48 GMT -5
OK. I didn't realize this. Don't I remember that recently we set a web on fire to free ourselves? Was that just for speed? Or to clear line of sight in a hallway? The somewhat implausible sparks cast by the blade barrier ignited the web... An unwebbed person freeing an adjacent webbed person is vastly different than attempting to hack through a corridor full of webs and still runs the risk of the unwebbed person becoming themselves ensnared. |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 10:12:18 GMT -5
The somewhat implausible sparks cast by the blade barrier ignited the web... I was thinking of some earlier occasion. In fact, I had completely forgotten this one. (Dana will vouch for my extraordinary ability to forget things.) But I admit that it rings a bell. OK, the blades would shred a web. Bummer. Next idea, anyone? |
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Post by venger on Dec 17, 2011 10:45:49 GMT -5
Using the web as a net to prevent things from entering the blades might be a more likely option.
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Dec 17, 2011 11:58:29 GMT -5
A few thoughts on Web: 1. Strong and heavy objects are able to pass through the web at various rates. I think that things being telekinesed would start to become comparable to strong and heavy when their movement rates became high. For example, a medium creature traveling at more than its normal movement rate might be considered as equal to having higher strength. So, if you used web to block access to the blade barrier, eventually, I think, the telekinesed PC might be pushed through it. 2. We have played in the past that if you are swinging your weapon into a web, like to hit something trapped in it, you need to make a STR check to recover it from the stickiness of the web. So, while you can hack through a web, it is somewhat time consuming and might require some rounds of recovering your weapon. See quote from House Rules WebThe Web spell binds the target in an immobile state. Spells only requiring verbal actions may be cast. Items in hand may be activated by command word with the grenade-like weapons table being consulted to determine the target. If lit on fire, the web will do 1d8 in damage, save against breath weapon for half. Creatures bound in the web can be struck with melee weapons by characters outside the web for damage as if they are immobilized. A 4d6 STR check must be made to retain use of the weapon. Missile weapons may not be shot or thrown into a web at creatures. 3. The description of web states that things making their saving throw are encapsulated within the web in a void space if they are not at the edge of the web. I think that even if the web can't block the blade barrier, the blades would whirl around in their void spaces. This may be enough of a disruption to sever the web entirely. DM call, imnsho. 4. Last, about blade barrier, the maximum area of effect is 60'x60' outdoors. I don't think this is a set of big scimitars. I would instead think of this as rings or planes of whirling weapons. From the web perspective, unless you decide that you can immobilize them with it (which I would not since in a man-sized area the weapon density is high enough for 8 sword-equivalent strikes), I think it's hard to see how the web stays intact. |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 12:02:19 GMT -5
The blade barrier does not obstruct line of sight. Does it obstruct arrow shots? Or give partial cover? |
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Post by Bolo on Dec 17, 2011 15:23:56 GMT -5
Here's a photo. Some things in my previous recollection are obviously wrong. (Hmph. Sorry.) The circle in the foreground is the dais, with the daemon on the left and the nighthag (blonde in green dress) on the right. The blade barrier is the cross-hatched 2"x2" square in front of the dais and overlapping it. Query to DM: Is the 2' elevation of the blade barrier relative to the main floor or the floor of the dais? Or is the dais low enough that this doesn't matter? Apparently Trommer has already squeezed past Paavo and Friedrich to get within striking distance of the daemon. I guess this means that P and F can't strike at the daemon, even in a lucid round. Does that look right? Ingrid is down. I forget whether she is just at zero or truly dead. I think just at zero, this time through. That's a shadow assassin standing next to her. At the top left, Bunny is down. She has a silver longsword if anyone wants to grab it. (Effective against the night hag, not effective against the daemon.) That's the other shadow assassin next to Mary Tanner. I believe the double doors at the top are both open. The 2"x2" square just right and down from them is a stinking cloud. I don't recall how long ago it was cast, but it's been a few rounds, so it shouldn't last much longer unless the casters (now dead) were higher level than I imagine. The orange critter to the right of the cloud is a surviving gargoyle. The gargoyle was caught in the stinking cloud and has only just emerged. The four knight figurines in the hallway at the top right, next to Radishblat, are the wererats Colby just summoned. An overgrown garden is visible through the 20' portcullis to the left of the wererats. In the first iteration Danakes tried to bend the bars of this portcullis to give us an extra escape route, but he was unsuccessful. Between the wererats and Danakes there used to be another portcullis, but it is now raised. The mechanism for raising and lowering it is behind a door that is just visible beneath the base of the Colby figurine. We don't know what's behind the other door in the hallway on the far right. In the first iteration, the backup team came up this hallway from the direction of the bottom right corner of the picture. That consisted of three trolls, a spellcaster, and three other unidentified women, who "could be spellcasters or hags" according to the DM. Attachments:
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Post by Ginger on Dec 18, 2011 12:07:29 GMT -5
Using the web as a net to prevent things from entering the blades might be a more likely option. This is what I always planned to do. It seemed self-evident to me that a web would be ripped apart by a blade barrier, fwiw. Regarding creatures being propelled through the web, how would that work? Let's say I get propelled 20 feet to the web in round one and get stuck. In round 2, I think I should still be stuck, but does the telekinesis force still increase? I think that since Colby's not moving, the spell doesn't build momentum and he'll never get going fast enough to break the web. That makes more sense to me than for Colby to be stuck in the web for 4 more rounds until he shoots out at 16" per round. |
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Post by venger on Dec 18, 2011 13:08:28 GMT -5
I was picturing the blade barrier as many swords whirling in each 5' square, so many that anything entering is automatically struck by 8 of them.  The blade barrier provides 100% cover from missile fire. Web will not indefinitely counter telekinesis and by round 3 the telekinesed object will start moving through the web at its strength equivalent. 6000GP weight is the strength equivalent of a frost giant and that would then tear through the web at 1' per segment... Would you get a save vs. the web if being telekinesed into it? If you made that save would you then end up in the blade barrier? I'm thinking you would be trying to become entangled in the web at that point and there'd be no save.. |
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