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Post by venger on Nov 17, 2011 14:44:24 GMT -5
You should see the stats on it!
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Nov 18, 2011 10:01:35 GMT -5
As an aside, I agree and disagree with the DM regarding the power curve conversion between BECMI and AD&D.
I agree that AD&D characters are more robust due to larger hit dice and have higher damage output, mainly due to specialization. Thus, AD&D characters can punch above their weight relative to BECMI. With the house rules we use, which also significantly enhance the characters relative to their AD&D baseline, the relative strength is further increased.
Where this begins to breakdown, and where I disagree with the DM, is in terms of damage absorption. As levels increase, the damage output of the creatures in the modules also increases. In my experience, with the exception of bards, the HP totals of the AD&D characters, even with our enhanced CON relative to baseline, are insufficient to absorb counterpunches from creatures. For example, the beginning of the Northmen campaign, with the loss of the party to the hobgoblins shows that the relative strengths between BECMI and AD&D can be misleading.
My experience in the prior campaigns has been that the party has been able to certainly handle encounters designed for groups several levels higher than their current levels. What they can't do is maintain that level of output for an extended period. Basically, when they start running out of gas, the wheels fall off. (Ouch, metaphor humor).
I can point to several discrete examples of this. The Pomarj with the Slavers is an obvious one. Demonweb pits is another, though that was complicated by lack of healing. Black Towen is a third. The individual battles were never a problem, it was the attrition.
$0.02
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Post by venger on Nov 18, 2011 14:21:14 GMT -5
That comparison between BECMI and AD&D power levels is my unsubstantiated opinion. I would agree that the theory breaks down somewhat as pertains to hit points and damage absorption, even with the extra potential for cleric spells/conversion in our campaigns.
I do heavily modify the prewritten materials I use, almost to the point of rewriting them. I feel like for the most part I've erred on the side of caution, as the party readily defeats all comers.
I would argue though that the party suffers from a "one more room" mentality which has lead to pretty much all of the cited death-by-attrition scenarios. I imagine stemming from a combination of stubborness, overconfidence and some meta-game perception of "fairness" in adventure module design.
Tactical combat with miniatures, amateur improv and exploration of the unknown aside, AD&D has a strong focus on resource management. Knowing when to retreat/regroup and when to advance is paramount to a party's survival.
I'm not a fan of scaling the world to the level of the PCs. I'd like a static campaign, where the high-level adventures exist side-by-side with the low-level adventures and the group must assess risk vs. reward/need.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 18, 2011 15:14:51 GMT -5
Regarding our "one more room" mentality, it always seems like when we pause to rest prematurely the party returns to find the BBEG has left with his loot.
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Post by venger on Nov 18, 2011 15:28:43 GMT -5
Regarding our "one more room" mentality, it always seems like when we pause to rest prematurely the party returns to find the BBEG has left with his loot. If you prefer I will have them organize and attack you while you are resting.
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Nov 18, 2011 15:32:51 GMT -5
This is a very interesting point in campaign design, one that I've given some thought during my hiatus. I think that the early model of old school gaming was one of large scale underground exploration in the megadungeon model where the creatures in the dungeon live there and aren't moving away. Look at B2 Keep on the Borderlands for example where the Caves of Chaos are these interlocking caverns with different factions in them. It then moved more into a campaign model where a series of interlocking modules provided an overarching plot and each module was smaller than a megadungeon. Look at the three Saltmarsh modules or the three/four Slaver modules as examples. Then the campaign model expanded beyond a single series of adventures to provide a greater meta-plot that the smaller series of adventures fit into. This is harder to show in the 1E modules, though the Hommlet/Temple of Elemental Evil or the Giants/Drow/Abyss set might be an example. You clearly see this in 2E, with the linking of the Slavers, Giants, Drow, Abyss series into an all inclusive campaign.
The sandbox idea, where the world is what it is and sometimes the encounter is a buzzsaw and you should just run away, I think works well, but it doesn't lend itself to long encounters, in my opinion. My experience with the Land of Song, which I played as a sandbox, showed me that big dungeons worked less well than little ones. The bad guys have too much of an opportunity to run with a big dungeon, the party gets worn down too much, and some of the exploration becomes more like a slog.
I think there's a continuum of difficulty relative to the party level that intersects with size of dungeon for a sandbox. Something along the lines of a single room with a really hard monster that is a 20% fight on one end and a big sprawling dungeon filled with kobolds wearing gold hats. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle where the party has a reasonable chance of completing the dungeon intact without resting, but could be in too deep depending on the order of the battles fought. Then the decision point for the party becomes whether the dungeon is too hard, too easy, or just right.
Back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 18, 2011 19:08:52 GMT -5
Regarding "one more room" ... I believe a majority of the party is ready to level up, just waiting to sleep. Also I believe Bolo's hit points are in single digits at the moment, one good hit away from dead. Is anyone else also low on HP? If so, is this one of the times when we should leave and regroup and come back later?
We could pop back to Devonshire, sleep, train, and be back in what? 20 minutes of playing time? It would blow a few weeks of game time, and the cost of some iron rations, but otherwise, what's the downside? Maybe we find the castle abandoned when we return? OK, bummer, but there's always another place to go next.
I'm not necessarily advocating this, just thinking out loud. What do others think?
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Post by venger on Nov 19, 2011 12:57:21 GMT -5
We could pop back to Devonshire, sleep, train, and be back in what? 20 minutes of playing time? I can practically guarantee you that the trip back will not be so uneventful.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 19, 2011 13:40:26 GMT -5
Remember that there's an army between us and Devonshire. We've slipped passed them previously, but I'm sure the magic users in this castle can warn them and track us.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 19, 2011 16:55:09 GMT -5
If you prefer I will have them organize and attack you while you are resting. I can practically guarantee you that the trip back will not be so uneventful. I'm getting the sense that "one more room" is the DM's preferred option this time. :-)
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Post by venger on Nov 19, 2011 17:46:13 GMT -5
I spent the time making the encounter tables so I'm going to use the encounter tables!
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Post by Friedrich on Nov 19, 2011 17:48:46 GMT -5
Would it be feasable to rest in the dungeon?
Friedrich is at a -4 to hit and -2 to dex for another ~12 turns.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 20, 2011 3:02:46 GMT -5
Everybody remembers that there are teleporting demons here in the dungeon, right? There is no where safe to rest until we take care of them.
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Post by venger on Nov 20, 2011 9:08:37 GMT -5
"Everybody sleeps within 10' of Paavo.."
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Post by Bolo on Nov 20, 2011 19:59:48 GMT -5
"Everybody sleeps within 10' of Paavo.." In a big pile like gerbils!
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Post by Wolfgar on Nov 21, 2011 11:01:16 GMT -5
Recap:
Trommer was angered by the smell from the cauldron. We avoided arguing with him and continued exploring. Found a room with a statue holding her hand out. Finn found a secret door behind the statue but was not sure how to open it. Colby eventually tried putting 3 octagonal gold coins we found earlier in the statues hand. That opened the secret door. The rooms had a couple of tapestries and a small fountain. The fountain was magical with mixed effects. Good for Colby and Trommer, bad for Ingrid and Paavo, temporarily bad from Bolo.
We left and continued exploring. The next room held 18 shadows. That went quickly enough except a number of people were weakened causing them to be greatly encumbered. At the same time we were attacked by an invisible stalker. Luckily it was near Trommer and Friedrich how did enough damage to it to make it flee.
We backtracked and by luck found a secret room that we could rest in. In the room was a book that Trommer rashly read and was driven insane (dementia). We fed him half of the elixir of health and he got better. Most people slept for spells and/or levels while Marcus and Paavo guarded. We were undisturbed. Detect magic was cast - two rings, Finn's sword, peacock feather, etc.
We set out again and followed a long hallway of pictures which seemed to stay level but after following it around 3 times we ended up on another level. The first room had sand and we simply walked around the edge to the next door. The next room contained a crystal harp that Trommer wrapped up. Opening the next door we encountered 3 ettins. We made pretty quick work of them though some heavy damage was sustained. There was an open treasure chest. I don't remember what was in it other than some gold. At this point we discovered that everything stored in the crystal ring was gone.
A door in this room was guarded by a carved gargoyle and a pair of dragons. The gargoyle told us to use the right key to open the door. Colby used an unseen servant to try a key we had found earlier. No luck. The unseen servant was killed by a breath from the dragons. We decided to take the other exit from the room which lead down some stairs.
At the bottom of the stairs was a short hall and a couple of doors. The first door opened to reveal a troll lair with 7 trolls. Marcus and Friedrich bravely stood their ground until Colby could work his way to the front and fireball them. We then charged in and hacked them down. Oil was used to completely burn them. Searching the lair revealed some gold.
We left through another door and worked our way through some caves. Bolo did some invisible investigation out front. In one cave he found a portcullis behind which was a lake. Out in the lake something gold could be seen. Unable to bypass the portcullis he backtracked and explored further. He entered a large room which held a man, his bodyguard and 4 serving maidens.
We sent a delegation to talk to him. He requested tribute. Paavo was the only one willing to give up something of value. The guy didn't think much of it and refused to let us leave. He transmuted the floor to mud and we all began to sink.
Bolo used the sigil to break the illusion (rolled 00). The man was a dao, his bodyguard was an earth elemental and the maidens disappered. They couldn't bodily attack us because of Paavo protection but we were unable to get out of the mud and we were sinking.
I'll skip the details of the battle. At the end of it Colby was unconscious and encased in ice. Friedrich was 28' tall and unconscious. Dan had polymorphed into a margoyle and was holding Paavo above the mud. A large stone wall had been converted into flesh. And the dao was encased in a force field from Danakes's box. Negotiation are underway. Something about a limited wish if we release him.
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Post by Wolfgar on Nov 21, 2011 11:26:11 GMT -5
Points of contention.
I think the dao, while turning to gaseous form, would have been affected by the fire from Colby's armband. It may not be "magical" fire but it is as hot as a fireball. Saving throws are based on the temperature of the fire regardless of source. And gaseous form is affected by hot fires.
The dao casts at 18th level. But the spells should be magic user not druid. So the area of effect of transmute rock to mud should be 2 cubic "/level instead of 2" cube/level. That is a factor of 4 in the volume affected. So either it was only 5' deep throughout the room or the area was much smaller. Either way would have greatly affected how the battle went. At 5' deep Friedrich would have moved through it easily after drinking half of potion. Even at 10' deep, a 16' tall Friedrich is effective at keeping people above the mud and is fully protected by Paavo. At 20' deep, the area is only 6"x6". Which would have meant that the rest of the party could have joined the fray. And throwing a rope to help people out would have been possible.
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Post by venger on Nov 21, 2011 11:55:51 GMT -5
In addition to the bricks of red gold in the ettins chest you found: a bag of dust or powder, a silver brooch in the shape of a sword and a large ornate shield.
The seeming ineffectiveness of the armband device on the backdrop, serving girls, dao, etc. was supposed to serve as an indicator that illusions were at work.
The item savings throw table differentiates between fireballs/meteor swarm/etc., "magical fire" and normal fire.
The fire from the armband is not magical, as we have established before, so it does not affect the creature in gaseous form... nor is it hampered by magic resistance...
There is nothing in the description of the dao that indicates whether it casts as a magic-user or a druid. Seems this one uses the more powerful variant. I wonder if the difference in AOE between the magic-user and druid spells is intentional. Maybe a Dragonsfoot question.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 21, 2011 15:22:40 GMT -5
The DMG description for a potion of gaseous form states that it makes you immune to non-magical fire, so I think the dao should likewise have been unaffected.
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Post by Wolfgar on Nov 21, 2011 17:08:20 GMT -5
I interpret "immune to non-magical fire" to mean that you are immune to fire unless it is as hot as fire which is typically only created by magic in this world. It has nothing to do with the fact that the fire is magical just the intensity of the flame. The authors felt no reason to overly pedantic about this since they didn't expect technological weapons in the standard campaign. Though they do give appropriate examples in explaining savings throws as to what counts for each category of fire.
Nor would I have ruled that fire resistance makes you immune to the effects of the armband. Fire resistance protects you to heat of a certain level. Typically non-magical fire doesn't reach that level. But something that does 6d6 in a single round would be hot enough.
If physicality is the requirement for immunity then they would also be immune to call lightning since the lightning is created from an electrical release of ions in the clouds. The only magical part of this is directing where it goes.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 21, 2011 17:57:23 GMT -5
I agree with Josh now. Colby wasn't immune to the fireballs fired from the device while he was wearing his collar of fire protection. He just got the normal bonuses.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 21, 2011 21:00:55 GMT -5
The next room contained a crystal harp that Trommer wrapped up. When he brushed against it and struck a note, the room got cold, right? So maybe if we play it, the mud will freeze solid so we can walk on it without sinking in.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 21, 2011 21:41:12 GMT -5
Can I get a clarification of the "you can't throw more than 30 feet" ruling?
Was this just for the ice beads and the rope? If so, I can be okay with that. Maybe the ice beads are like cotton balls or something, and just don't carry far, no matter how hard you throw them. It could be a weird effect of their magic. And I can see that someone who hasn't practiced throwing a coil of rope might have difficulty getting it to go very far.
If it applies to thrown items that are considered as weapons to do damage, I can also be okay with that. Damage requires force and accurate positioning, which both diminish with range. A throw from farther away also takes longer to arrive and therefore gives the target more time to dodge. I can see that all this gets rolled up into adjustments to the effective AC, and if the effective AC becomes infinitely negative at distances above 30 feet, fine.
But surely some things can be thrown more than 30 feet? Baseball bases are 90 feet apart, and 60 feet even in Little League. Is baseball impossible in D&D?
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Post by venger on Nov 21, 2011 21:46:31 GMT -5
In a world where Alchemy > Science it could be argued that the difference between magical fire and normal fire is not just the intensity of heat produced.
According to the description of the item: It "works like a wand of fireballs (doing 6-36 points of damage at a range of 240 feet whenever the front of the pistol grip is pressed."
Fire resistance (per the ring) is fairly specific. It lays out three levels of heat. The plasma burst from the device would be an "exceptionally" hot fire by those standards.
The questions I ask myself: would an exceptionally hot (non-magical) fire affect something only affected by magical fire? Is an exceptionally hot fire then magic? Subject to magic resistance? Is Burning Hands hot enough to affect a creature in gaseous form? It does comparable damage to burning oil... but it's magical. Is the gas of the gaseous form magical? Why doesn't regular lightning affect a creature in gaseous form? Why would they differentiate between magical and non-magical lightning????? At what point would a creature in gaseous form be struck by non-magical lightning during a session??
My somewhat simplistic stance was that things which are only affected by magical fire are only affected by magical fire.
I would assert that a creature in gaseous form is not protected in the same fashion as one wearing a ring of fire resistance and would take full damage from the magical "very large or hot fires" listed: hell hound breath, demon immolation, wall of fire; but be unaffected by non-magical molten lava -- whereas the fire resistant character would suffer 1 point of damage per segment of exposure, as per the DMG, regardless if the fire was magical (hellhound) or non-magical (laval).
It's not really something that really matters in this case, as the trapped dao is yielding, nor do I consider it a particularly important issue affecting the campaign.
Maybe we can compromise and say that fire reaching extreme temperature (quintessence) becomes magical due to some connection with the elemental plane of Fire... : )
And for the record I believe Call Lightning creates magical ions in the clouds, so the lightning is magic.
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Post by venger on Nov 21, 2011 22:32:55 GMT -5
Can I get a clarification of the "you can't throw more than 30 feet" ruling? Was this just for the ice beads and the rope? If so, I can be okay with that. Maybe the ice beads are like cotton balls or something, and just don't carry far, no matter how hard you throw them. It could be a weird effect of their magic. And I can see that someone who hasn't practiced throwing a coil of rope might have difficulty getting it to go very far. If it applies to thrown items that are considered as weapons to do damage, I can also be okay with that. Damage requires force and accurate positioning, which both diminish with range. A throw from farther away also takes longer to arrive and therefore gives the target more time to dodge. I can see that all this gets rolled up into adjustments to the effective AC, and if the effective AC becomes infinitely negative at distances above 30 feet, fine. But surely some things can be thrown more than 30 feet? Baseball bases are 90 feet apart, and 60 feet even in Little League. Is baseball impossible in D&D? Weapon ranges for hand-held thrown weapons are in the PHB, pg. 38 Ranges for "grenade-like missiles" are on DMG, pg. 64. (they're all the same, 1"/2"/3") You made me break out the Wilderness/Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. That's unfortunate. According to the WSG: a grappling hook attached to a rope can be thrown upward a distance of 1/3 of a character's strength score (rounded up) x10 feet. Now according to the DSG: (which seems asinine after reading the WSG) the distance one can throw an unattached loop of rope is level dependent- 40' at levels 1-4 50' at level 5-8 60' at levels 9-12 75' at levels 13-16 90' at level 17 and beyond. I'm inclined to go with something like the WSG. With an additional consideration for horizontal throws. But that's not considering different weights, aerodynamics, etc. that make it difficult to figure out how far you can throw a ball vs. a grappling hook vs. an orc skull, etc.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 21, 2011 23:49:09 GMT -5
In the grappling hook case, the WSG says, "If the throw is horizontal ... the character’s maximum throwing distance is the same as for a vertical toss unless he is in a secure position and has a 10-foot radius of space around himself to allow for whirling the hook in a circle before letting it go; in that case, he can make a horizontal throw twice as far as his maximum vertical throw."
For Bolo, 1/3 STR x 10 = 40 feet, or 80 feet horizontally from a good position.
As he was constrained by the stairway this time, I can see using 40 rather than 80, and as he didn't have a hook, I can see reducing that to 30. If that's roughly what you have in mind, then post hoc I'm good with that.
I have put a grappling hook on Bolo's shopping list.
Do the house rules include proficiency in rope use as described in the WSG (p. 16)? If so, what does Bolo need to do to learn this?
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Post by venger on Nov 22, 2011 12:45:18 GMT -5
I specifically want to avoid using rules out of those books because they flat-out suck and while I understand the impulse to codify rules to make the game more realistic, it's always becomes just too much.
Not allowing you to throw the rope farther than 3" because the books say that's the range of thrown weapons was a failure of imagination on my part. A condition I'm somewhat prone to after 4pm on a Sunday. And I'm sorry. : (
I've decided the furthest someone can throw something is 1/2 their strength x10'. Outdoors, if the object can arc, this will translate to yards (PHB pg. 38)
Actually achieving this distance will require a # of dice vs. strength and a # of dice vs. dexterity to determine how accurate the throw.
Allowing Trommer to throw a Hail Mary pass the length of a football field with an appropriate object and some luck.
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