dual-classing (0-level humans)

[venger]

Bunch of questions!

Savings throws as a 0-level fighter? (That's the only 0-level on the Savings Throw Matrices.)

Attacks as on the "ATTACK MATRIX FOR FIGHTERS, PALADINS, RANGERS, BARDS, AND 0 LEVEL HALFLINGS AND HUMANS"? DMG pg. 74

(side question, not relevant to the dual-classing, why is it 0-level "halfings and humans"? Do elves, gnomes, dwarves, half-orcs have a different chart?)

Does a 0-level character have weapon proficiencies? How many? If not, is there a penalty imposed?

It was mentioned that a 0-level magic-user might have cantrips?

Does a 0-level cleric have spells?

Does a 0-level fighter have exceptional strength?

Going from 0-level to 1st level, do you gain a % stat increase?



The answers to these questions will not impact my decision to dual-class and remain with the party as a 0-level PC. Which I've decided is way better than 1d4 months of game time playing a brand new character. In 1d4 months the party could be all the way across the ocean in the Land of Sand!

[Dead Greyhawk]

Sept 8, 2008 9:57:42 GMT -5 venger said:

Bunch of questions!

1. Savings throws as a 0-level fighter? (That's the only 0-level on the Savings Throw Matrices.)

2. Attacks as on the "ATTACK MATRIX FOR FIGHTERS, PALADINS, RANGERS, BARDS, AND 0 LEVEL HALFLINGS AND HUMANS"? DMG pg. 74

2A. (side question, not relevant to the dual-classing, why is it 0-level "halfings and humans"? Do elves, gnomes, dwarves, half-orcs have a different chart?)

3. Does a 0-level character have weapon proficiencies? How many? If not, is there a penalty imposed?

4. It was mentioned that a 0-level magic-user might have cantrips?

5. Does a 0-level cleric have spells?

6. Does a 0-level fighter have exceptional strength?

7. Going from 0-level to 1st level, do you gain a % stat increase?



The answers to these questions will not impact my decision to dual-class and remain with the party as a 0-level PC. Which I've decided is way better than 1d4 months of game time playing a brand new character. In 1d4 months the party could be all the way across the ocean in the Land of Sand!

Bunch of Answers!

1. Yes!
2. Yes!
2A. Because halflings have 1-6 hp, but all other demihumans have 1 HD!
3. Yes! 1! Same as class under training!
4. Sure! 2, assuming someone has a cantrip book! (A first level spell is equal to 4 cantrips, no?)
5. No! We don't play with orisons! (Dragon magazine article)
6. No! Class skill!
7. No!

[venger]

I left out the "rogue" archetype.

Dual-classing into a 0-level thief/monk/assassin:

Do you have the House Ruled "base thief skills" with no additional points to allocate? Or no skill whatsoever?

[Dead Greyhawk]

Sept 8, 2008 20:29:40 GMT -5 venger said:

I left out the "rogue" archetype.

Dual-classing into a 0-level thief/monk/assassin:

Do you have the House Ruled "base thief skills" with no additional points to allocate? Or no skill whatsoever?

Base thief skills sounds good to me.

[venger]

Couple more questions, class-specific:

There are two options, in game and out of game- (say fighter for example)

d4 months to become a 1st level fighter.
2000xp to go from 0-level to 1st level fighter.

At the end of the d4 months or upon obtaining the 2000xp- will you then have 4 weapon proficiencies to allocate? Can you then specialize? Do you need to spend additional weeks training, per the House Rules, to learn these weapons? Or is that assumed from your d4 months/2000xp as a 0-level character?


*relating to thieves/assassins/monks, assassins don't gain thieving skills until 3rd level so at 0-level they'd presumably have none. So in the above "rogue" question I guess I meant thieves/monks only.

[Wolfgar]

I think in game you would have to train for the new proficiencies or new skills. I think out of game you would have had time to train for the skills.

[venger]

Say you want to stick with the party and gain the 2000xp to go from 0-level to 1st level, as opposed to the d4 months out of game "training" to be a 1st level fighter.

But then, after however long spent in-game earning the 2000xp, you're stuck with several weeks training to learn the weapon skills you need to be a fighter.

Which effectively puts you out of the game unless the rest of the party wants to hang out in town while you learn weapon proficiencies/specialize.

[Dead Greyhawk]

Sept 12, 2008 8:34:21 GMT -5 venger said:

Couple more questions, class-specific:

There are two options, in game and out of game- (say fighter for example)

d4 months to become a 1st level fighter.
2000xp to go from 0-level to 1st level fighter.

At the end of the d4 months or upon obtaining the 2000xp- will you then have 4 weapon proficiencies to allocate? Can you then specialize? Do you need to spend additional weeks training, per the House Rules, to learn these weapons? Or is that assumed from your d4 months/2000xp as a 0-level character?


*relating to thieves/assassins/monks, assassins don't gain thieving skills until 3rd level so at 0-level they'd presumably have none. So in the above "rogue" question I guess I meant thieves/monks only.

You will be a 1st level character. You will have the starting proficiencies as a first level character. If you take time to train, you will have the opportunity to pick weapons and specialization. If you take the XP route, you will only have the opportunity to learn the weapons that your mentor is proficient in. Else, you have unfilled proficiency slots as per gaining levels. Assuming you have a weapon proficiency, you can specialize in it upon assuming 1st level. You can choose to "roll over" proficiencies from your previous class into your new class, but they will count against the new class total. (e.g. a cleric who is proficient in footman's mace and dual classes to fighter may choose to become proficient as a fighter in footman's mace, using 1 of the starting proficiencies. The same cleric/fighter may also specialize in footman's mace. If that cleric/fighter wished to specialize in longbow, the proficiency would need to be learned and then specialized in. If the warrior mentoring the cleric/fighter in gaining 2000 XP was not proficient in longbow, the cleric/fighter would need to, upon gaining 1st level, find someone to train and grant proficiency in the weapon to the cleric/fighter.) For those folks who go off to train for d4 months, there's probably a cost to make the paths more comparable. (After all, the Company never trained anyone for free.)

[Ginger]

Sept 13, 2008 15:59:45 GMT -5 Dead Greyhawk said:

Sept 12, 2008 8:34:21 GMT -5 venger said:

Couple more questions, class-specific:

There are two options, in game and out of game- (say fighter for example)

d4 months to become a 1st level fighter.
2000xp to go from 0-level to 1st level fighter.

At the end of the d4 months or upon obtaining the 2000xp- will you then have 4 weapon proficiencies to allocate? Can you then specialize? Do you need to spend additional weeks training, per the House Rules, to learn these weapons? Or is that assumed from your d4 months/2000xp as a 0-level character?


*relating to thieves/assassins/monks, assassins don't gain thieving skills until 3rd level so at 0-level they'd presumably have none. So in the above "rogue" question I guess I meant thieves/monks only.

You will be a 1st level character. You will have the starting proficiencies as a first level character. If you take time to train, you will have the opportunity to pick weapons and specialization. If you take the XP route, you will only have the opportunity to learn the weapons that your mentor is proficient in. Else, you have unfilled proficiency slots as per gaining levels. Assuming you have a weapon proficiency, you can specialize in it upon assuming 1st level. You can choose to "roll over" proficiencies from your previous class into your new class, but they will count against the new class total. (e.g. a cleric who is proficient in footman's mace and dual classes to fighter may choose to become proficient as a fighter in footman's mace, using 1 of the starting proficiencies. The same cleric/fighter may also specialize in footman's mace. If that cleric/fighter wished to specialize in longbow, the proficiency would need to be learned and then specialized in. If the warrior mentoring the cleric/fighter in gaining 2000 XP was not proficient in longbow, the cleric/fighter would need to, upon gaining 1st level, find someone to train and grant proficiency in the weapon to the cleric/fighter.) For those folks who go off to train for d4 months, there's probably a cost to make the paths more comparable. (After all, the Company never trained anyone for free.)

I'm still a bit unclear on how this works.
Rensslaer could chose to dual-class to a fighter under Basil's tutelage. He has the option to select as his one proficiency anything that he was proficient in or that Basil is proficient in (pending Lendor's approval). After he gains 2000 xp he will be able to specialize in that weapon without any further training. Is this correct?

[Dead Greyhawk]

Rensslaer started with 2 proficiencies (spear and longsword). Rensslaer becomes a 4th level cleric and chooses to become a fighter. He apprentices himself to Basil.

Basil started with 4 proficiencies (bastardsword, bastardsword, and two others). He can teach people those weapons.

Rensslaer, upon successively switching to fighter, will have 4 empty proficiency slots from his fighter class and 2 full (spear and longsword) proficiency slots from his cleric class. Rensslaer can take spear or longsword as fighter proficiencies, can take any of Basil's weapons as fighter proficiencies, or take none of them and have four empty proficiency slots. Rensslaer can specialize in any weapon he is proficient in.

In theory, Rensslaer, as a 5/4 fighter/cleric, can be proficient in a maximum of 7 weapons (5 from his fighter levels, 2 from his cleric levels), five of which he would be able to use his fighter THAC0 with and 2 that would be permanently at 4th level cleric.

Note that Rensslaer could have as few as 3 proficient weapons if he chose to be proficient as a fighter in spear and longsword (his cleric weapons) and also double specialized (using up 2 additional weapon proficiencies.

[venger]

Do clerics get an additional weapon proficiency at 4th level? Or 5th?

[Dead Greyhawk]

I thought it was 1/3, but now that you mention it that is likely the fighter progression. Clerics are probably 1/4. I'll edit my above post.

[Ginger]

Can a dual-classing character be trained by a sub-class of the class he's trying to learn? Can Kimball teach Kazan how to dual class to fighter, perhaps with a 1.5x modifier?

[Wolfgar]

I don't think there would be any modifier for ranger teaching a wannabe fighter or assassin (above 3rd level) teaching a thief. The other direction wouldn't work, nor could a druid train a cleric or an illusionist train a magic user.

[Dead Greyhawk]

That's an interesting question. Kazan's comment would imply that the ability of a sub-class to teach the main class is not constant (druids cant teach how to be a cleric but paladins can teach to be a fighter). Are you suggesting that only fighter and thief subclasses can teach main class abilities? Where does monk fit into the thief hierarchy? How about the other direction; can a thief train someone to be an assassin?

The relationships seem to get somewhat complex. For ease of use, I'd probably say that you need to be the class you are training, but I'm open to other interpretations.

[Wolfgar]

I am only suggesting that a true subclasses can train their main class. By true subclass I mean a class that has all of the abilities of the main class. The subclass may not do these abilities as well but there is nothing the main class can do that the subclass can not also do. There is no reciprocity since the main class doesn't have knowledge to fully train any subclass. Classes without a true subclass could only be trained by the same class.

Ranger and Paladin are true subclasses of Fighter. They all attack and save on the same tables. They can all specialize in weapons. Fighters gain weapon proficiencies and multiple attacks more quickly but Rangers and Paladins do get those abilities at later levels.

Similarly Assassins and Thief-Acrobats are true subclasses of Thief. Assassins gain their thief skills later so a low level Assassin could not train a 0-level Thief. But once the Assassin has gained those skills he could train a Thief.

Illusionist and Druid are not true subclasses of Magic User and Cleric, respectively. Illusionist can not understand all Magic User spells and similarly for Druids and Clerics.

Monks are not in the Thief hierarchy. So a 0-level Monk could only be trained by a Monk. Nor could a Monk train a 0-level Thief.

[Ginger]

This all sounds fine to me. I think that druids and clerics (and MUs and Illusionists) should be able to train each other at a penalty, but this is good.