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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 10:29:22 GMT -5
Yeah, we already decided that the items we're currently carrying belong to the person that has them. So the snake-staff that Liato carries belongs to Winthrop, not to the company as a whole. So if you want to keep it, you'll have to talk to him about it.
We only have one jade ring - the one that was sent back with Ed's body. We had more, but they're were on us when we died, so Dredd has them now. And yeah, it would be good for a melee guy to go into the cloud and take out the incapacitated people - it frees Raven up to shoot other people.
The company fund is essentially a resurrection fund, as well as a food, shelter and equipment fund. If we hire mercenaries to help us fight the gnolls in the Dreadwood, or a valet to keep our house clean while we're gone, that's what we'd use to pay them.
How about making the group cash more like an insurance policy? There's a buy-in for a certain amount - a couple thousand gold, probably, since it cost us around 6000 to raise Winthrop. Then a payment every month, to cover maintenance costs, and that makes you a "member." If you're not a member, then your resurrection comes out of your own pocket, or it just doesn't happen.
So new people joining are clearly employees - we buy their equipment and food, and pay them a fair wage + a reduced share of the spoils (this is assuming a 1st level hireling). They won't be able to join until they've adventured with us enough to earn the buy-in amount, by which time we'll know if they're worth keeping around or not. After the buy in, you no longer get a salary - instead, you get a full split of the goods.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 16, 2004 10:51:26 GMT -5
Ok, so have Frank and Garvin "bought in" to the Company? If so, will they get to bid on magical items after our next adventure?
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 11:21:27 GMT -5
As far as I know, Frank and Garvin have not bought in to the company. They're eligible to join anytime, though. Frank did get the whole party raised from the dead, so I'd say he can join for free any time he wants. Garvin, I'd say we need to see what he's willing to do. Is he interested in going to the Dreadwood and fighting Gnolls and San's army? Or is he going to stay in Longspear if/when we leave? Because if he's not coming with us, he'll take useful magic items, and the party gets no benefit from it.
Then again - we could have him join, and stay in Longspear to recruit another Blue Sun "team" that would do low-level type stuff, guarding caravans and the like - so when we come back to this area, we don't have to worry about hiring NPC's, and Blue Sun Hall would be well taken care of.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 16, 2004 11:59:15 GMT -5
I think Dana already said that no one is going to pay money to be part of the company. If there's 50,000 gold in the fund and a new person joins in then they have full access to the fund. That's sort of the point of joining. "We like you enough that we're willing to ressurect you." After all, it's a ressurection fund. It's not like someone is going to intentionally die just to screw the CBS out of some money.
I think we were moving in the right direction by basically getting rid of all the formalities and the community property of the CBS so it is basically just the name of an adventuring group.
I think a 10% cut of your take for ressurection and upkeep on group property like the boat and the house is reasonable. People can pay for their own room and board. It's not like that's a major expense and different characters have different preferences anyway. If Frank were in the company and it was on the company dime he'd probably demand all the nicest inns. Liato will probably just sleep outdoors sometimes.
For non-members/new employees I thought we were just going to negotiate rates as we go.
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 13:46:40 GMT -5
We can't trust everyone to be as honest as Dell - they can join, and start paying into the insurance fund, but as far as having access to the funds, that'll have to go up to a vote.
Finally, a good use for the Feign Death spell!
I think that the 10% should come out before the cash gets split - it amounts to the same thing, but saves time. About the magic items - do those that get "more powerful" magic items get less of a cash payout? I say yes.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 16, 2004 13:56:54 GMT -5
I think that the 10% should come out before the cash gets split - it amounts to the same thing, but saves time. About the magic items - do those that get "more powerful" magic items get less of a cash payout? I say yes. This will lessen the incentive for people to bid on magical items. How will we quantify how much they're worth? Just take it from the DMG?
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 15:02:59 GMT -5
The DMG prices are unrealistic - I don't think there's a chance of our DM letting us have anything close to the 35,000 gold that it says that Serpent Staff is worth. I could be wrong, though. There's got to be some kind of balancing factor, though. Perhaps the people that only get Potions, or items they can't use (like if Dell were to get magical armor) get the first pick from the next adventure's spoils?
This is what I understand the system to be:
1. Divide money evenly (since everyone in the party is close to each other in levels.) 2. Give magic items to those that can use them best - a magical axe would go to Al, magic broadsword to Frank, Magic longbow to Raven. Wizard only items to wizards, Cleric only items to the clerics. 3. All the items that aren't agreed upon in step 2 go up for draft. The people that got items in step 2 go after the ones that didn't get anything.
We can skip step 2, if you think that people won't draft items they can't use because they look more valuable.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 16, 2004 15:20:00 GMT -5
I'm not at all worried about distributing items among PCs. Al doesn't seem at all greedy. Frank might be a problem.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 16, 2004 15:26:50 GMT -5
The system that 3rd edition recommends using for splitting treasure counts the value of the items as treasure reward. That's the way to go.
So when we split treasure we do the following things:
1) Count the coins 2) Assess the non coin property 3) Divide accordingly
For example, If we get 10,000 coins, a magic sword, a wand, 5 potions, and a ring we need to assess the values.
sword = 3,000 Wand = 1,000 potion = 100 each ring = 3500 Total = 8,000 (I'm using low numbers to make the example easy. swords and rings are worth much more)
That means the total value of the treasure is: 10,000 coins + 9,000 items = 18,000
We then divide that by the number of shares (let's say 6)
Each person would be entitled to 3,000 coins worth of treasure.
If someone took the ring, which is worth 3500 they'd have to pay 500 gold to make up the difference.
The beauty of this system is that the hard part, assessing, is really a bidding system.
Whoever gets an item wants the cost to be as low as possible since they have to pay for it. But everyone else wants the cost as high as possible because they are, in essense, selling it. If after we're done assessing items no one wants to buy it that means we've put the price too high. If everyone still wants it that means the price is still too low.
I like the idea of bidding on items instead of just rolling for items or drafting. This actually helps mages since most of the expensive items like armor and weapons will be purchased primarily by fighters. Fighters need expensive equipment and mages need expensive spells. This is a market way to make that work.
Maybe Dana could help us with a basic idea of what magic items would cost so we would know where to start the bidding.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 16, 2004 15:52:38 GMT -5
I like the efficiency provided by a market system, but I think that it might be more helpful after treasure is divided. If magical items are randomly assigned, then we can buy, sell and trade them amongst ourselves in a way that will work well.
My other idea is that, instead of putting money back into our joint account like a tax, we'll fill that account by auctioning the treasure to ourselves. This way, you can store up cash over a few adventures and save it to bid a lot on the really cool items, or you can save it to buy spells or other items in town, or you can use it for training costs.
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 16:15:01 GMT -5
Looks like too much work. We're trying to get a system in place so we don't have to argue about how much each item is worth. Under this system, scrolls and potions shouldn't count as "real" magic items, since they're one shot items. Those would be distributed in part 2 - given to who can best use them. Garvin, of course, gets all the cleric scrolls. Wizard scrolls, me and Winthop will share, and potions will be a case-by-case.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 16, 2004 16:27:10 GMT -5
We always have to assess the value of magic items at some point because the NPCs/hirelings always ask about it and demand compensation.
It's too late to try using the market after the coins are handed out. What the coins do is make it easier to bundle sets of items.
Randomness is designed to transfer the unfairness of splitting items to luck.
Drafting is designed to create fair bundles. By taking turns picking it's likely that everyone will get a roughly even valued item. The better items go to the first people but that's made up by having the order reverse after the first round. If you go first you get a really cool item but if you go last you get two decent items. The distribution is a little unfair, which is why we use randomness to determine draft order.
But it's still not as optimal as a bidding system. Bidding makes sure the item distribution is fair because it balances out the difference in item value with gold. If you get crappy items at least you get more gold. Some people think gold is more important than others and that all comes out in how they bid. If you don't get much gold because you spent it all on magic items then you have only yourself to blame (or thank).
If we want to make it easier we can set some fixed prices to start from.
Weapons count as 5,000 Potions are all 100. Scrolls are all 200. Armor is 10,000
Since we'll probably divide this stuff before we identify it that's not a bad system anyway. But you should still have to give up gold to get the item.
If you get armor then it adds 10,000 gold to the total take, but it also counts for 10,000 gold of your share.
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 18:32:16 GMT -5
The random method should work out well enough in the long run - people will make deals for items that they really want amongst themselves. For example, Winthrop owns the snake staff, and liato owns the paralyze rod - they can call that an even trade, or someone can throw in extra cash.
If we found a +3 longsword, and Raven drafted it before Dell could get to it, Dell and Raven could work out a deal where he could trade something for Raven's old +2 sword. And if Dell drafted some Plate mail that turned out to be +2 or +3, he could trade it to Raven or Frank for something they had that he wanted, or cash, or their next draft pick, or some combination of the above.
One random draft may be unfair, but a series of them should work out fine.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 17, 2004 8:02:12 GMT -5
So do hirelings go in the draft, too?
Unless the hirelings get to pick magic items, too, then we still need to calculate values for them.
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Post by Dell on Dec 17, 2004 9:06:58 GMT -5
At this point, I don't really consider us as having "hirelings". So yes, Garvin, Frank, and Liato should join the rest of the company in an even split of the funds, and join in the split of the magical items as well. (Although at least 10% of the total haul in this adventure will have to get tithed to Pellor, along with whatever else the Pellorites get.)
When we do get hirelings, we're going to pay them like mercenaries - they get a set salary, with bonuses for hazardous duty. They'll be 1st level, and consequently they won't deserve a full share, especially since we'll be buying them armor, weapons, supplies, food, telling them what to do, keeping them alive, changing their diapers, etc.
Here's what I envision:
We hire some 1st level scrubs. Take them on a some adventures with us, until they get up to third or fourth level. Then, we set them up at one of the many bases we've found, give them a good stake of cash and equipment, and set them up as splinter "Blue Sun" subsidaries. We could be the biggest thing on the continent!
I mean, we've got a house in Saltmarsh, the Hall of the Blue Sun in the Little Hills, Dredd's pirate lair, Sigurd's pirate lair on the Javan river, the slaver's secret waterfall hideout, the nerullite temple, the other nerullite temple, and the monastery that is actually a nerullite temple.
This way, if everyone dies, we can start over as Blue Sun trainees, and not have to change the name of this messageboard.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 17, 2004 9:27:06 GMT -5
Maybe we could charge them a franchise fee?
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Post by Dell on Dec 17, 2004 9:30:34 GMT -5
We would have to have a good reputation before we could do that.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 17, 2004 9:42:58 GMT -5
Not a "good" reputation, just a tough reputation. We may be slavers and infest towns with werewolfs, but we kick a lot of ass and bring in a ton of loot.
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Post by Dell on Dec 17, 2004 10:09:36 GMT -5
Maybe we should buy out the "Black Hand" mercenary company, and rename them?
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Post by Ginger on Dec 17, 2004 14:01:04 GMT -5
So what are we going to offer the Pelorites? Just a flat 10% tithe to Pelor? I don't think they'll need any more since we had one member die, and two guys get level drained. That should get us some sympathy points.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 17, 2004 14:02:22 GMT -5
Any interest in using up one of Lloyd or Garvin's 3rd level spells to speak with the dead high priest? If we use it along with Combine, we can ask 3 questions.
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Post by Dell on Dec 17, 2004 14:10:54 GMT -5
I'd rather have them memorize dispel magic, or prayer, or remove curse, or something like that. If we had kept the bastard alive, we could have gotten all sorts of good info, but now, I say it's best that we save it for later.
Someone needs to have a talk with Frank.
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Post by Dell on Dec 17, 2004 14:22:58 GMT -5
So what are we going to offer the Pelorites? Just a flat 10% tithe to Pelor? I don't think they'll need any more since we had one member die, and two guys get level drained. That should get us some sympathy points. I think a 10% off the top would be a good start. Paladins and rangers aren't greedy at all, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. We should give the ranger a potion to replace the one he used , and maybe some other minor magical items - clerical scrolls and the like. Fortunately, the Pelorites are pretty well outfitted, so they won't demand much. And Dell, Winthrop, Raven, and Frank all have extra stuff hidden away that the Pelorites don't know about. There shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 17, 2004 15:17:07 GMT -5
We can also give the Pelorites the scrolls of Nerull to destroy. They'll love that.
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