liato
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Post by liato on Dec 13, 2004 10:17:23 GMT -5
Obad-hai willing, it will be time to divide the loot soon.
Do we have a policy for this yet?
I'd think we should consider a share system. I've revised the system I mentioned before.
Once we calculate total loot in gold we divide it by the total number of shares to get the share value. Each person gets paid based on the number of shares they have.
There are 3 ways to get shares which I call "The 3 Cs": Character, Commitment, and Company status.
Character:
Your Character shares are determined by your ability.
+1 share/character level.
This will keep new recruits from getting a full split and will naturally give them performance based raises.
Commitment:
Your Commitment shares are based on your tenure with the CBS.
+1 share/adventure
The longer you are with the company the more money you make. This will encourage recruits to stay around.
Company Status:
Full company members receive bonus shares.
+5 shares if you are a member (the number is so large to discourage people from not becoming members. There could be levels of memberships (3 for junior, 5 for full)
+? bonus shares for exceptional performance.
New recruits should aspire to member status. The bonus shares for members should encourage them to not just be hangers on.
For simplicities sake, we should get rid of the tithe to the company funds. That has never worked right.
If we need to make a purchase for the company (house repairs/development, ressurrection, logistics) then we can assess a fee to all members at the time.
(e.g. We need 10,000 gold for defenses. Anyone who gets a member share is responsible. 5 members = 2,000 gold each. If you don't have it it comes out of your next loot distribution)
To recap the share system:
1/level
1/adventure
5/membership status
I think we should artificially make the starting shares around 10 - 12 per member (which is basically done by adjusting the commitment value).
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Post by Dell on Dec 13, 2004 12:19:46 GMT -5
Dell is worse off under this system than the current one, so he votes against it.
He likes the current system, where every hireling deal is negotiated independently - we might find someone dumb enough to work for six silver a day at some point.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 13, 2004 12:33:16 GMT -5
How is Dell worse off? Isn't dell one of the guys that thinks Frank is better off for not being in the company?
If you think you are going to find someone willing to walk into a Nerul temple for 6s/day you are kidding yourself.
And the current system isn't negotiating independantly it's the CBS vs. all the henchmen. The henchmen colude. They always ask each other about whether the split was fair or not.
The closest thing to a current system CBS has is telling the henchmen you're going to pay them one amount and then screwing them when it comes time to pay out. That's not really a working system and it's why there's always so much friction with henchmen.
How exactly do you think the current system works? This might be a question that Liato has to deal with and considering Frank seems to think there's no reason to join the CBS and considering that Frank, despite being a front line fighter doesn't seem to go unconcious very often, maybe he's doing it right.
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Post by Dell on Dec 13, 2004 13:07:40 GMT -5
The way the current system works, as Dell sees it, is:
The henchmen get a lot of cash, but no magic items. The members split up the magic items, and send a lump sum to the bank. So he has a chance of getting a magic item - and then he gets to spend as much of the party's money as he can justify on new spells, identify pearls, and spellwriting inks for himself and Winthrop. And since Winthrop doesn't have any room in his spellbook currently, all the new spells go into Dell's spellbook, becoming his.
Realistically, this is no change from the earlier days of the party, where all the money went to the spellcasters because they needed to train for spell levels, buy supplies and such... but since it works out in Dell's favor, he likes it. He'd be fine with a totally even split, too. But anything that lets someone else have a bigger share than him, he votes no.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 13, 2004 14:54:16 GMT -5
Right now CBS is a total of 3 people and, since everyone sees the money suck straight to Dell and Winthrop, no one is the least bit interested in joining.
Here's the reoccuring problem.
The CBS says, "we found 4,000 gold. here's your share." And the henchmen say, "you also found 5 bags of potions, a stack of spells, magical armor, a magic figurine, about a million gems, a rug, etc.. How much of that do we split?" Then you try to cheat them on how much magic platemail costs.
The non-CBS party members are increasingly demanding accurate compensation for the magic items. If you actually give fair compensation then the CBS is going to be flat broke. You realize that it's very difficult to hire henchmen now, right? Every person that has ever worked with CBS says the same thing. "They're okay guys but they'll screw you in the end. Make sure you watch everything they put in the sack because they have very short memories come bill time."
Not to mention the fact that we end up with sub-optimal gear distribution. (e.g. "someone give frank a magic dagger!":)
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Post by Dell on Dec 13, 2004 14:56:33 GMT -5
This article has some good methods of dividing treasure. It has some bad ones, too. I like the "according to class" and "according to need" methods the most, but the "luck of the dice" method has its advantages. And we should probably come up with something like this: www.theharrow.com/rpg/adventurerscontract.htmlBecause we chased that stupid chalice for months, and never got paid a d**n thing for it.
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Post by Dell on Dec 13, 2004 15:29:15 GMT -5
The CBS says, "we found 4,000 gold. here's your share." And the henchmen say, "you also found 5 bags of potions, a stack of spells, magical armor, a magic figurine, about a million gems, a rug, etc.. How much of that do we split?" Then you try to cheat them on how much magic platemail costs. The non-CBS party members are increasingly demanding accurate compensation for the magic items. If you actually give fair compensation then the CBS is going to be flat broke. You realize that it's very difficult to hire henchmen now, right? Every person that has ever worked with CBS says the same thing. "They're okay guys but they'll screw you in the end. Make sure you watch everything they put in the sack because they have very short memories come bill time." Not to mention the fact that we end up with sub-optimal gear distribution. (e.g. "someone give frank a magic dagger!":) First off, I don't see what the emphasis on joining the company is. Who cares if they join the company or not, as long as they go on adventures with us? Besides, the only way to make being in the company an advantage is to screw over the hirelings - either by giving them smaller shares, or by not giving them extra cash in exchange for magical items. Or, we can just fire the greedy bastards we have now, and get a bunch of low level bums. I mean, we're a company, shouldn't we have interns that are there just to get some experience? |
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 14, 2004 9:15:17 GMT -5
There obivously is no emphasis on joining the company. There are no real benefits to joining the company. Why does the company still exist as a company?
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Post by Dell on Dec 14, 2004 10:04:19 GMT -5
There obivously is no emphasis on joining the company. There are no real benefits to joining the company. Why does the company still exist as a company? Because it sounds better to call us "Company of the Blue Sun" than "those guys." Why was the company formed, anyway? I thought it was because of the ship. If it would make you feel better, we can use the company funds to invest in businesses, buy property, and in general try to become tycoons. |
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 14, 2004 10:27:29 GMT -5
All I was asking is if the company is anything more than a name anymore. Apparantly it isn't.
I keep hearing things about "only company members can have magic items" and "only company members get ressurected". And company members have to contribute to a pool of money that only the spell casters get to use.
But now there are only 3 of you, no one wants to join, and you don't particularly want anyone to join. So all of that is gone or going away, right?
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Post by Dell on Dec 14, 2004 11:06:46 GMT -5
Well, this particular adventure is screwy in so many ways. We've got the four members of the company, the three Pellorites, two hirelings, and... one druid that we aren't sure about. Splitting this treasure up is going to be as dangerous as the adventure.
I find it tremendously amusing that Raven, Winthrop, and Liato have all filched a little extra treasure for themselves now. Finally, learning from Dell's example... I'm so proud of you all...
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 14, 2004 13:14:29 GMT -5
The filching is an excellent example of how the system is not working.
I think it's time for the formalities of the CBS to go bye bye.
As for dividing treasure, I think we all agreed that we trap the pelorites in the temple and sacrafice them to Nerul. That should help the split.
I think some objects need to be divided by need and those are usually fairly obvious. (Although I can't wait to see the fight over Bracers of Defense)
The issues we always had were the miscelleneous items. The problem is that once we give them to someone the objects have a way of disappearing. That's why we're still trying to chase down Melar, Remo, and Serrin, right?
Speaking of which, I think we have a good chance of getting the items back from Serrin. He's a non-active monk in charge of that monestary and since he's lawful he was aware of the fact that he didn't own the items. Since he's a monk he should be even more inclined to give them up.
I get a new weapon proficiency next level and if we can get the spear back I'll learn that. I think it will be a lot harder to get the scimitar back since Remo will be hard to find and is not particularly inclined to give stuff away.
I think we should be able to get the ring of protection back from Melar since she only played once and we were being nice. That's a large part of the reason we stopped being so nice about item distribution. Uh...what I meant to say is that we should get the ring back because Melar obviously decided the adventuring life wasn't for her and has just been waiting for us to come by and claim our ring.
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Post by Dell on Dec 14, 2004 14:20:43 GMT -5
On the contrary, I think that the filching is the system we've decided on. If we were all lawful and good, we could set a rule and stick to it. But Dell, at least, and probably others, will either not respect the rules, or try and bend them as far as they can go. So no matter what the rules are, no one will want to abide by them, and it'll be essentially the same as it is now.
I think that's one of the options in that list I linked to - divide the items by who can use them/who doesn't have them - and then the remaining items go up for a draft, with order selected by dice roll. If we still wanted to maintain the company member/hireling distinction, we could have a bonus to the company member dice roll, or pre-select the items that the hireling would get, or just pay them off in cash like we've been doing.
Who cares about the lousy spear - get that ring of free action back!
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 14, 2004 15:58:23 GMT -5
Yes, stealing is in Dell's alignment and most of our characters alignments. But as the site you linked to points out, it's a suboptimal system. It's not only short sighted for the character, but it's typically bad for the players.
Everyone knows Dell steals from the party. Everyone sees that he ends every battle untouched. Don't you think it might really piss off the fighters if every time they woke up from unconciousness they saw a guy sticking as much treasure into his pocket as he could. And it's not like anyone wants Dell to identify items for them. Every time he touches an item we have no idea if we're going to get it back or not. We certainly don't trust his descriptions. Not to mention the fact that he spends half his time invisible and wears amulets dedicated to evil gods under his clothes.
What do you think Winthrop or Raven would do if they found out Dell was cutting deals to steal stuff from the party with Frank? How long do you think we'd really keep a character like Dell around? If he was an NPC do you think we'd be dealing with him at all? As Dana mentioned, if he were an NPC he'd be a new villian.
I know everyone in the party is pretty greedy and highly motivated by selfishness, but that's part of the reason that stealing from the party wouldn't be tolerated. A smart thief knows better than to steal from his companions because if they don't trust him they won't let him stay around.
It also makes it pretty hard as a player. It kind of sucks when the DM always has to pass special notes to someone. Everyone ends up extra paranoid and we end up spending half our time following each other around.
I, personally, don't like a system where we're supposed to steal from each other and we can't trust other PCs.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 14, 2004 19:00:38 GMT -5
I think that the biggest difficulty in coming to terms here is in conflating our hireling payment system with our member-payment system. When dealing with hirelings, we have the same needs as any business: getting the best possible employees for the lowest possible cost. Right now, we give our hirelings quite a lot, and they are quite good.
Frank is really good, because he not only has good stats, but he got very good HP rolls. If we hired a random 5th level fighter off the street, it's extremely unlikely that he'd be as good. However, if we hired another 5th level cleric to replace Garvin, he'd probably be just as good. Paying out a ton of gold to them after each adventure is probably worth it, since our combat power would be greatly diminished if we had to replace them with level one characters.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 14, 2004 19:08:20 GMT -5
When it comes to distributing loot amongst the company, I'd probably vote for a lottery system for everything under a certain resale value. I add that qualifier because a lottery system would be disastrous when we get back our ioun stones, or get anything else of great value. As much as I'd love having an extra 7 hit points and +1 to hit, it just isn't nearly as good as letting one of you guys get an extra level's worth of spells. That seems like something which obviously needs to be passed around. Our potion of restoration should be equally unownable.
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Post by Dell on Dec 14, 2004 22:17:06 GMT -5
Everyone knows Dell steals from the party. Everyone sees that he ends every battle untouched. Dell hasn't stolen anything from another party member, and doesn't intend to. Sometimes he picks up a little extra treasure. Dell contributes a lot to the party, both in combat and out. For starters, imagine what would have happened if the "bash it open" technique had been used on the chest with the dust in it. And the Flesh Golem killer? I think it was Dell with the 30 points of backstab. Dell has 18 hit points - neither of his classes are worth a damn in face-to-face combat. The fighters are there to protect the wizards from combat, right? And Dell is smarter than everyone else, so it only stands to reason that he'd get hit less. Of course, he's got 4 hp right now, the only reason he's alive is because of Winthrop. Dell is usually the scout for the group - being invisible is a part of his job. And the amulet - well, it's under his clothes because the Pellorites are around. The last time he wore the amulet in a Nerullite temple, the undead didn't attack him because they thought he was one of the priests - he's hoping the same thing applies here, and is kind of surprised that no one else is wearing one. I thought it added to the fun, myself. But I'll play him differently, if that's what people want... You remember, he was warned by Elmo that the Blue Sun would try to screw you on the split - Elmo got that info from the Stoutleys. Since Winthrop saved him from certain death, he's going to trust the group now. Well, the company members, anyway. The hirelings are there to be screwed, as far as he's concerned. But if he feels like he's getting screwed when the goods are split, he'll revert to his old ways, grabbing everything he can find. |
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Post by Dell on Dec 14, 2004 22:29:31 GMT -5
When it comes to distributing loot amongst the company, I'd probably vote for a lottery system for everything under a certain resale value. I add that qualifier because a lottery system would be disastrous when we get back our ioun stones, or get anything else of great value. As much as I'd love having an extra 7 hit points and +1 to hit, it just isn't nearly as good as letting one of you guys get an extra level's worth of spells. That seems like something which obviously needs to be passed around. Our potion of restoration should be equally unownable. The "resale value" isn't perfectly related to the power of the item, if you go by the figures in the book. But I agree, there are some items that are too good to be assigned to one person, that should move around for the good of the party. But there should still be a "default" person that carries them, if for no other reason than to prevent the "I thought you had it" issues we used to have. |
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 15, 2004 9:12:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure what other characters or players think of Dell's actions. I suppose that Liato doesn't care much what Dell picks up since he's not particularly loot oriented (which is hard for me because I am particularly loot oriented). Ed wouldn't have been very happy (particularly since he was constantly accused of stealing) and Rook would have smashed Dell's hands in by now.
I actually don't have any problem with people looting during combat or Dell's role in general. I think it's a good idea, particularly when you don't have very much you can do combat wise.
The issue is that it when half of it ends up undeclared personal property of whoever picks it up, it turns into the first come first serve system of loot distribution. I didn't see the dagger because dell picked it up and all of the sudden I have no claim on it. That is, in effect, stealing from the party.
You're right that Elmo warned Dell that the CBS would try to screw him. The CBS has a terrible reputation among hirelings largely because they completely try to screw them all the time. Is screwing hirelings really official policy?
I think part of the problem is the way NPCs work. NPCs don't seem to be willing to borrow items and give them back. And if a player doesn't show up we can't use his items. That means people are very reluctant to loan items to each other because there's a good chance that they'll never get them back for non in-game reasons.
Serrin is sick today so you can't use the ring of free action. Melar isn't here so you lose the ring of protection. William doesn't want to use the sword you found unless you tell him it's magical. If you tell him it's magical he won't give it back. Frank won't use anything that he doesn't own. A couple weeks ago we had to decide if Winthrop would let Dell use his spell books. If James doesn't make it one week does that mean we can't use the lion figurine?
Not exactly an environment that induces sharing.
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Post by Dell on Dec 15, 2004 10:40:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure what other characters or players think of Dell's actions. I suppose that Liato doesn't care much what Dell picks up since he's not particularly loot oriented (which is hard for me because I am particularly loot oriented). Ed wouldn't have been very happy (particularly since he was constantly accused of stealing) and Rook would have smashed Dell's hands in by now. Well, they gave him full access to the company accounts, so they must trust him a little. They are suspicious, though. I think this adventure is the turning point, though - the company is essentially trying to do to the Pellorites what Dell tries to do to them. The party that steals together stays together, right? Dell has a dagger proficiency, which no one else except possibly Al has. Winthrop might pick it up at level 7, but I think he's going to go with darts instead. And magical daggers (thrown at an annoying high level wizard) don't count as Normal Missiles... We have plenty of magical stuff - and even more of it has come and slipped through our fingers, due to theft, death, and the like. I don't see a problem with letting Frank or Garvin have magical items - it's better than them not being used, right? And if they keep them when they leave - well, that's fine with me too. I know if Dell leaves for an extended vacation, he'll be taking all his goodies with him. That's why I think it's important to say what belongs to who. |
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Post by Ginger on Dec 15, 2004 10:49:39 GMT -5
I think we've done a reasonably good job with item distribution. When it's broken down, it's been in pretty extreme cases. As we've become more powerful, our adventures are much longer term, and that changes the out-of-game dynamics. When one of us couldn't make it on Sunday in the past, our characters just would just stay in the inn while sick or go out wandering, and everything would be fine in time for the next adventure.
In our current situation, where we frequently travel great distances and are very difficult to keep up with, it doesn't make as much sense for our PCs to stay home. As such, it's not as big of a deal to spread around items. Additionally, if you know you can't make it, email us with instructions for your character to give out his items to the rest of the group.
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Dec 15, 2004 14:45:33 GMT -5
I think that all items should be "owned" by someone. At the end of an adventure we put all the "known" new magic items on the table. Players then can choose what item they want. If someone else wants the items then a die roll is made to see who gets it. That way there is an equitable distribution of items. Then if I get say a 'sword' I could then loan it to an NPC and still have the item to trade for something else in the future. In general most of us wouldn't quibble over something we can't use.
I think it is logical that if a person's character is not there then their items wouldn't be either. Unless they let it be know that they loaned it ahead of time. The idea of the pool was to be able to take advantage of everything we found. It also depends on you personal view of how your character is used. I have no problem with my character being used as an NPC when I am not there. By this I assume the full risk that Winthrop could die permanently. You may not like taking that risk so that means your character is not used. In such a case if you are willing you can say to the DM that when that happens you "loan" certain or all items to the party before you go or none at all. That is a personal choice.
The aim is that there is an equitable distribution of the spoils. This way there isn't any counting. We don't want an uneven distribution of the powerful magic. I have a very powerful spellbook. I don't want to use it and risk the chance of not finding that spell in the future but with my track record I'll probably lose it long before I can.
I don't have a problem with Dell's sneaky ways and the passing of notes. That is part of the role playing. It does create an element of suspicion but again that is part of the character. I fully expect that some items will not be reported but that is also the risk that Dell accepts if he gets caught. If he does then we get to role play that. Emphasis on the "if." It may also be that he is totally upfront about everything and just likes to keep us geussing for the fun of it. Its all part of the game.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 15, 2004 15:02:28 GMT -5
Should the following things be owned by a player?
1. The Ioun Stone of Experience
2. The Sea Ghost
3. Gador's former house
2 and 3 are more obvious than 1, but I think that all should be un-ownable.
Other than that, I don't really care how items are distributed, since I don't think anything could be put to much better use. If we do something as random as a magical item draft, we can have people trading their picks to help optimize distribution.
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Dec 15, 2004 15:41:32 GMT -5
I would agree that the house and the boat are corporate assets that if ever sold the proceeds would be share equally.
I still think the Ioun stone should be owned by someone. Being that it is a very powerful thing to own it woul preclude the owner from another such item until everyone else has something as powerful. How the owner chooses to use it, either keep to themselves or lend it to a party member, is up to them.
The Ring of Free Action is of a similar nature. Serrin 'owned" it and essentially always used it when he was there. He was willing to loan it out when there was a need or would not be there.
I played in a game for five years that used the simple voting and die roll technique. We never had a problem with it. It works well as long as people go for items that they can use. It obviously can have some problems if everyone wants it just because it is valuable. Even in those cases it is solved by the simple die roll. The high roll wins.
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Post by Dell on Dec 15, 2004 16:09:14 GMT -5
The ship and the house can clearly be shared - if someone wanted it all to themself, they could buy out the other people's shares. With something like the Ioun stone, where only one person can use it at a time, I think it should belong to one person, at least on their character sheet.
Even Dell knows the value of sharing such an item. He's willing to share any most of his items, if it would strengthen the party as a whole. Because the stronger the party is, the more loot we all get together.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 16, 2004 8:43:28 GMT -5
Ok, it seems all settled then. What items are currently unowned. We've got the breathless iounstone sitting in the house and the shield of Nerull. Anything else?
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Dec 16, 2004 9:18:09 GMT -5
Ed's +2 bow. A bunch of protection from good amulets? I don't recall anything else.
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Post by Dell on Dec 16, 2004 9:28:53 GMT -5
There's also the jade ring that makes a mental link to other jade rings.
The ioun stone - well, Winthrop always used to carry it. Does anyone else want it? The shield, I thought we were giving to Frank, after we get the logo changed. It would drop his AC by at least 2. He really only needs to wield his weapon 2-handed against large sized creatures, after all.
Ed's bow could go to Al, if he gets revived - he's got proficiency in shortbow, and he usually gets the strength spell put on him.
Dell likes the jade ring, because he likes jewelry and shiny things. And daggers - he loves daggers.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 16, 2004 9:34:11 GMT -5
I like the die roll system/ownership thing, too.
Are we saying if you have it on you right now you own it or are we putting everything in a pool and picking from that?
Do the NPCs get die rolls for stuff?
I think the site Dell linked to also mentioned a group which put 10% off the top of the haul towards a ressurection fund. I think that's a very simple common goal that everyone could agree with donating to. Being a member of CBS could be as simple as whether you want to donate to the ressurection fund or not.
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liato
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Post by liato on Dec 16, 2004 9:41:16 GMT -5
I think the ioun stone that keeps you from breathing would be a good item for Dell. It would save him from powder traps and one of his favorite spells is stinking cloud which it would also save him from. He could go into the cloud and hack things up. Alternately a fighter could take it so they could fight inside of the stinking cloud.
If we have 2 jade rings that would be great for Liato and one of his pets.
I'd like to remind everyone that Ed's Bow is a holy symbol devoted to Solanor. It might be nice if we returned it to the Church of Solanor. Maybe they would help fund a new bow for Raven. Or maybe they have a cleric there who would join us. Their clerics get ranger tracking skills.
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