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Post by Bolo on Nov 3, 2011 10:38:57 GMT -5
Even with Finnious's "triple damage from behind" multiplier he doesn't do as much damage, on average, as Trommer. Also, is it not true that Fin would only get the triple damage once? Backstabbing is only when you attack by surprise from behind, right? So ISTM that after his first strike, Fin would only get a regular attack from behind on subsequent rounds. I'd be happy to be corrected, if this isn't how we play backstabbing.
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Post by venger on Nov 3, 2011 11:29:10 GMT -5
Also, is it not true that Fin would only get the triple damage once? Backstabbing is only when you attack by surprise from behind, right? So ISTM that after his first strike, Fin would only get a regular attack from behind on subsequent rounds. I'd be happy to be corrected, if this isn't how we play backstabbing. It really depends on the circumstance.
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Post by Ginger on Nov 3, 2011 12:59:17 GMT -5
A few suits of full plate would be a much better use of funds than a +6 bow. Giving Trommer back his +2 strength bow and buying two +3 bows for Danakes is a much better use in my opinion.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 3, 2011 16:53:12 GMT -5
It all depends on how often we're going to be in a situation like the black dragon in the lake, where Trommer can't close and use his sword. If that comes up again, then the more damage we can inflict with distance weapons, the better.
This is going to be an oversimplification, and maybe it's not even the right comparison, but as a point of reference, take the black dragon example:
A black dragon is AC 3, so Trommer needs a 13 to hit (40% chance). With two shots per round, and a +6 bow instead of +2, he'll average an additional 40% x 2 x 4 = 3.2 hit points on target per round. I don't know Trommer's dex. If it gives him a to-hit bonus with a bow, then the average extra damage on target will be correspondingly higher (+0.4 additional damage per +1 to hit).
Going the other way, full plate versus regular plate improves AC by 2 and therefore reduces the chance of being hit by 10%. A black dragon does d4 + d4 + 3d6, so the average benefit of the better armor is 10% x (2.5 + 2.5 + 10.5) = 1.55 hit points per round, if the person being targeted by the dragon happens to be the person who got the better armor.
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Post by agesilaus on Nov 3, 2011 18:44:12 GMT -5
(Fully in character here!) Thanks for the very detailed analysis, Paavo. You overlook three critical factors.
One, looking at this purely from a damage standpoint, you're right, Trommer causes more mayhem. But Trommer can't sneak up behind anything. Can you not envision a scenario where getting the drop on someone would help tremendously? Or what if there's no other way to get to an unfriendly critter without sneaking up on it? Fin can easily imagine either scenario. Trying to get the sword back from Trommer (who would also have a magic bastard sword that Fin can't use) would be a dangerous waste of time. Seconds are like sapphires in combat, Fin points out. Precious but brittle.
Two, what if Fin had such a blade when we -- Fin corrects himself, when Friedrich and I while the rest of you were charmed, frozen or otherwise goofing off ha ha -- were toe to toe with Katarina? Instead of piddly little dagger damage (no offense intended to Marcus, thanks again), a critical hit from a longsword might have tipped the balance sooner. The point being, we're not always going to be in situations where Trommer can do his thing, and we'll have to rely on folks like Fin, Bolo or Colby slinging blades. In those cases, it makes sense to give them as much advantage as possible. You yourself said you've not had thieves before willing to take point and slide around behind a melee....now you do. Give it a chance.
Three, have we overlooked the possibility that this elven blade has other attributes that only an elf may use? Hard to tell without using it some.
(Still in character!) All told, Fin's beginning to wonder a bit. Yes, he's grateful for the lightning wand, but he did say (and he meant it), it's still party property. Now the idea is being floated that the party should regard as party property the elven longsword that was given him after he almost bit it up against the black dragon. Makes Fin wonder if, next time he gloms on to an evil Vampirella's private loot, he shouldn't better keep all that money, info and experience to himself.
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Post by Friedrich on Nov 3, 2011 19:00:32 GMT -5
A few suits of full plate would be a much better use of funds than a +6 bow. Giving Trommer back his +2 strength bow and buying two +3 bows for Danakes is a much better use in my opinion. Yes, a backup bow is definitely a good idea as they have a tendency to get broken in combat. There's a thread in the house rules section titled "when the bow breaks" or something that Garreth might want to look at sometime. In order to take advantage of 'point blank range' archers will often find themselves in situations where their bows can be broken. (I was an archer in the last campaign) Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Friedrich, Trommer and Paavo didn't help in the fight. Clearly they didn't deal damage, but this is a definitely an instance where just forming a protective wall of steel was sufficient to force the dragon into a firefight that was rather one sided. It's a good thing Mary took magic missile. The very first session we had it, we were presented with a perfect opportunity to use it and it certainly weighed in decisively here. I can't believe nobody had taken it yet. I know damage dealing magic is outlawed but Lord Sherlane didn't care when MT told him she had it. He just advised her not to talk about it publicly.
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Post by Wolfgar on Nov 3, 2011 19:47:30 GMT -5
The fact that the sword is elven is purely conjecture. It hasn't been positively identified. We haven't even checked if it is magical. We just saw a broken statue of an elf lord holding two swords, one of which looked a lot like it. And there was evidence that the elf lord was killed by a dragon and the sword was found in a lake guarded by a dragon. All purely circumstantial evidence.
Regardless, if you had read to the end of my long boring post you would seen that I suggested that the best course of action was for Finn to have the sword. Specifically because he would do more damage from behind. I am not trying to take something from Finn, I am just trying to maximize the effectiveness of the party. Just more of that "for the greater good" nonsense from the resident paladin.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 3, 2011 19:50:17 GMT -5
Yes, a backup bow is definitely a good idea as they have a tendency to get broken in combat. Good advice. Thanks. Danakes had a broken bow repaired with a mend spell once. In the pit with the clerics, I think. Is there a reason why this wouldn't work on a strength bow? It wouldn't help in the heat of combat, I do realize that. But Danakes already has his old bow as a spare, and ~3000gp is a lot for just a better backup.
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Post by Wolfgar on Nov 3, 2011 20:14:55 GMT -5
I think there is a house rule that strength bows that are mended are then just normal bows. It might be nice if they just lost a single plus every time they are mended. But I guess they lose a lot of tensile strength when broken that cannot be easily repaired.
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Post by Friedrich on Nov 3, 2011 21:14:48 GMT -5
I think there is a house rule that strength bows that are mended are then just normal bows. That's the way Dana played it when my (Alfred's) +1 strength bow got broken in the last campaign. It might be nice if they just lost a single plus every time they are mended. Did Kimble or Raven ever have a +2 or greater bow destroyed in combat? Did it loose just 1 from thje strength bonus or all of it? Regardless, if you had read to the end of my long boring post you would seen that I suggested that the best course of action was for Finn to have the sword. Well I read your whole "long boring" post and I agree with all of it. Did you ever take into consideration, a situation, like, with the vampires, where Finn's "expected damage output" becomes 0 due to the creature requiring +1 or greater weapons to hit? In that instance it would seem (without performing an Excel spread sheet analysis ;D) that we would be better off with Trommer having the +1 weapon and Finn having the plus +2.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 3, 2011 21:21:34 GMT -5
The fact that the sword is elven is purely conjecture. It hasn't been positively identified. We haven't even checked if it is magical. We just saw a broken statue of an elf lord holding two swords, one of which looked a lot like it. And there was evidence that the elf lord was killed by a dragon and the sword was found in a lake guarded by a dragon. If it's not magical, I will be very surprised. But now that you mention it, there's something very odd about the way the sword was stored in this lake. Who put it there? Some black dragons can use magic, but if the dragon cast the stasis spell in the first place, why would it need a scroll to reverse it? If someone nasty put it there, and put the dragon with it to guard it, then they must be a pretty scary someone to be able to boss dragons around. My guess is that someone nice put it there, before the dragon arrived, and had the scroll made so that someone else nice could recover it. But then it seems a bit of a coincidence that the dragon chose that exact spot to make its nest. Perhaps it was attracted by the sword and just never figured out how to retrieve it. This is my best theory, but I'm not entirely happy with it. Speaking of nest, did we look closely enough at the "hollowed out area like a place where a snapping turtle might lay its eggs" to see whether there were any dragon eggs? If not, that was probably a mistake, but in all the excitement about the gold and gems and sword and whatnot, I didn't think of eggs until just now.
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Post by Bolo on Nov 3, 2011 21:49:33 GMT -5
In that instance it would seem (without performing an Excel spread sheet analysis ;D) that we would be better off with Trommer having the +1 weapon and Finn having the plus +2. What, you got something against spreadsheets? :)
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Post by venger on Nov 4, 2011 10:34:46 GMT -5
You have two magic (cursed) bastard swords.
Trommer has one, who has the other?
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Post by Ginger on Nov 4, 2011 11:40:11 GMT -5
You have two magic (cursed) bastard swords. Trommer has one, who has the other? I think we left it with Sherlane on the page full of post-its.
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Post by venger on Nov 4, 2011 14:17:50 GMT -5
We'll have to figure out what evil/cursed items you left in your benefactor's home... and how much he appreciates it.
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Post by agesilaus on Nov 5, 2011 9:19:49 GMT -5
(Out of character) No, I got your last line on who should get the sword. And I also get that you're in character as well. It's all good. Thieves -- even neutral good thieves -- are suspicious by nature. Also, apologies: I didn't realize the sword had not been Identified. That single spell can put a lot of this conjecture to rest immediately. (In character) It's hard for Fin to believe in a pure altruism like Paavo's. His understanding of human nature leads him to believe it doesn't exist. For sure it doesn't exist in elven nature. We left the cursed sword with Sherlane? Oy vey, indeed. See "in character" note about trust above. Any chance we've found any young, nubile Swedish masseuses with sketchy morals? Fin's interested in finding some of those.
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