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Post by Ginger on Jun 10, 2008 9:07:57 GMT -5
Can we get an official DM ruling on what the prime requisites for each class are for the purposes of dual classing? Does every stat that has a minimum listed in the PH count? Or merely every stat that has a minimum for the 10% bonus to experience points? Inquiring minds want to know...
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jun 11, 2008 20:03:18 GMT -5
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Post by venger on Jun 11, 2008 21:04:00 GMT -5
That is definitely the strictest interpretation for dual classing... but the House Rule for % stat increases with each level is a great compensating factor. If everyone didn't want 18's in their prime requisite many characters in the party probably could have dual-classed already. |
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Post by Ginger on Jun 12, 2008 8:34:21 GMT -5
That is definitely the strictest interpretation for dual classing... but the House Rule for % stat increases with each level is a great compensating factor. If everyone didn't want 18's in their prime requisite many characters in the party probably could have dual-classed already. So says the guy with two 18s. Some of us are still hoping for the day we level up and get our first 17. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Jun 12, 2008 13:05:38 GMT -5
So really what you should do is at first level start putting your % increase in the stat for the next class you want to dual class to. Once that is high enough then you switch classes and start pumping up a new stat. First you hit fighter, cleric, thief and magic which only have a single prime requisite, then illusionist, then ranger. Druid, assassin, monk and paladin are difficult because of alignment restrictions. I suppose you could be lawful good and go fighter, cleric, magic user, illusionist, ranger, monk, paladin.
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Post by venger on Jun 12, 2008 14:08:49 GMT -5
That bugs me. If you're going to dual-class the decision needs to be made at the beginning when you roll up the character, which strikes me as very meta-game.
And with the House Rule, once you start dual-classing your stats are going to increase and increase as you go from 1st to Xth level again. Then there's nothing to stop you from dual classing again, is there? Conceivably, given enough time, you could be a 9th level fighter, 10th level magic-user, 11th level cleric, 12th level thief with all 17s for stats.
Like something out of Dieties and Demigods.
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Post by Wolfgar on Jun 12, 2008 15:50:40 GMT -5
You could write it into the back story of the character...
Later he could have a conversion and become deeply religious.
One option might be you get randomly assigned your class initially regardless of your characteristics (assuming you met the minimum). Then over time you might increase some stats in order to move into your true calling.
Personally I think that 17's are high for fighters and thieves given how low the strength and dexterity can be initially.
I think there could be situations where characters are forced into new classes - wizard dropped into a world without magic or no access to spell books, cleric unable to commune with his god, amnesia. To survive the character would use basic fighting or thieving skills. Depending on the duration of the interlude you would expect them to gain some skill in the new profession. However when they returned to normal they should be able to switch back to the original class.
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Post by Wolfgar on Jun 25, 2008 21:02:39 GMT -5
There is this rule in the Starting Characters thread Characters wishing to play a specific class or race must place their highest rolls in the required characteristics for that class or race. Do we use this? If you are planning on dual classing can you put your highest characteristics in the required characteristics for the second class you intend on taking so long as you meet the minimum 15 requirement for the first class? |
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jun 25, 2008 21:49:06 GMT -5
There is this rule in the Starting Characters thread Characters wishing to play a specific class or race must place their highest rolls in the required characteristics for that class or race. Do we use this? If you are planning on dual classing can you put your highest characteristics in the required characteristics for the second class you intend on taking so long as you meet the minimum 15 requirement for the first class? The intent of this rule is for the case where the rolls for a character are insufficient to meet the minimum requirements for a class. A player wanting to play a paladin, for example, must align the dice rolls in accordance with the requirements for the class. An alternate way of stating this is that the difference between the minimum requirements for the class and the actual dice rolls must be minimized. If your dice rolls qualify you for your first class, then your arrangement of dice rolls is at your discretion. I don't think that I would be inclined to allow a player to modify his starting rolls because of an intent to dual class at a later date. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Jul 1, 2008 21:57:01 GMT -5
A couple more questions. At the bottom of page 79 in the DMG it says Multi-class characters, characters with two classes, and bards check the matrix for each class possessed, and use the most favorable result for the type of attack being defended against. Are we using this for dual classing? In discussion we agreed that a character could change classes more than once assuming he had sufficient statistics for this. Now lets assume the character first achieves 7th level in fighter then changes to cleric and only get 5th level in this class before switching again to magic user. Would he get to freely use cleric abilities at 6th level in magic user but not get to use fighter abilities until 8th level? |
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 2, 2008 5:49:09 GMT -5
A couple more questions. At the bottom of page 79 in the DMG it says Multi-class characters, characters with two classes, and bards check the matrix for each class possessed, and use the most favorable result for the type of attack being defended against. Are we using this for dual classing? In discussion we agreed that a character could change classes more than once assuming he had sufficient statistics for this. Now lets assume the character first achieves 7th level in fighter then changes to cleric and only get 5th level in this class before switching again to magic user. Would he get to freely use cleric abilities at 6th level in magic user but not get to use fighter abilities until 8th level? A. I submit that saving throws are class abilities. Once you reach a higher level in your second class, you can choose to save as the second class or the first class, whichever is better at the time. Before you reach a higher level in your second class, this would be akin to using your prior class skills (like THAC0) and result in no XP for the session. As a concrete example, a 5/10 Magic User/Thief could save as either a 5th level mage or a 10th level thief at will. A 10/5 Magic User/Thief would save as a 5th level thief or could choose to save as a 10th level mage, forfeiting XP for the week. B. You would not be able to change class for a third time before surpassing the first class's level in the second class. Thus, the 7/5 Fighter/Cleric could not become a magic user until the cleric class reached 8th level and would not gain access to either the fighter or cleric abilities until reaching 9th level magic user. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Jul 2, 2008 7:46:02 GMT -5
A. I submit that saving throws are class abilities. Once you reach a higher level in your second class, you can choose to save as the second class or the first class, whichever is better at the time. Before you reach a higher level in your second class, this would be akin to using your prior class skills (like THAC0) and result in no XP for the session. As a concrete example, a 5/10 Magic User/Thief could save as either a 5th level mage or a 10th level thief at will. A 10/5 Magic User/Thief would save as a 5th level thief or could choose to save as a 10th level mage, forfeiting XP for the week. I don't suppose you would allow the player to roll his savings throw, check which class would pass and then decide which class to use. I don't have the DMG handy but as an example suppose the 10/5 magic user/thief needed a 8 against spells as a 10th level magic user and a 13 against spells as a 5th level thief. If the player rolls a 15 he doesn't have to choose. However if he rolls a 10 then he gets the options of choosing but would lose his experience if he opts to use the magic user savings throw. |
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Post by venger on Jul 2, 2008 8:48:04 GMT -5
1) An Xth level fighter switches to magic-user.
He has d10 HP/level and won't gain anymore until he reaches X+1th level magic-user? At which point he gains a d4.
Will we still be rolling for stat % increases through each of those levels even though we aren't gaining HP?
Better to know now at 1st level than have it come up when I'm a 5/1, cleric/fighter, stuck with a 17 strength for the next 6 levels.
2) If you dual class into a fighter and you have an 18 strength, do you roll % for exceptional STR at 1st level?
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 2, 2008 18:55:24 GMT -5
I don't suppose you would allow the player to roll his savings throw, check which class would pass and then decide which class to use. Nope. 1) An Xth level fighter switches to magic-user. Will we still be rolling for stat % increases through each of those levels even though we aren't gaining HP? 2) If you dual class into a fighter and you have an 18 strength, do you roll % for strength, do you roll % for exceptional STR at 1st level? 1. Yes. 2. Yes. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Jul 9, 2008 11:14:52 GMT -5
More questions.
Longsword specialized fighter dual classes to cleric of god that prohibits edged weapons. Can he use the longsword after the cleric level exceeds the fighter level without angering his god?
Monk/Fighter - Do monk abilities - falling, dodging missiles, save for no damage - require not wearing any armor or taking a dexterity bonus to AC? Can you use the monk weapon damage bonus in addition to specialization bonuses?
Thief(Assassin)/Fighter - Can you back stab(assassinate) in plate mail so long as you attack from behind(surprise)?
Paladin/X - Do you have to do anything to retain your powers - lay hands, protections from evil, etc?
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Post by Ginger on Jul 9, 2008 13:46:31 GMT -5
More questions. Longsword specialized fighter dual classes to cleric of god that prohibits edged weapons. Can he use the longsword after the cleric level exceeds the fighter level without angering his god? Monk/Fighter - Do monk abilities - falling, dodging missiles, save for no damage - require not wearing any armor or taking a dexterity bonus to AC? Can you use the monk weapon damage bonus in addition to specialization bonuses? Thief(Assassin)/Fighter - Can you back stab(assassinate) in plate mail so long as you attack from behind(surprise)? Paladin/X - Do you have to do anything to retain your powers - lay hands, protections from evil, etc? I'd vote no for the assassination one, I think. Just like you can only use a thief weapon and a thief THAC0, you have to use thief armor. I guess you couldn't be holding a shield while you backstab someone also. I think the others are fine. |
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Post by Ginger on Jul 9, 2008 15:32:37 GMT -5
Can you drink a potion if you're a dual-classed monk?
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 9, 2008 18:46:08 GMT -5
Longsword specialized fighter dual classes to cleric of god that prohibits edged weapons. Can he use the longsword after the cleric level exceeds the fighter level without angering his god? No. His god will be angry, since he is violating his god's precepts. He will still receive full XP for the week, since he is not violating rules, but will likely not receive spells greater than level 2 for some time, at least until atonement. Monk/Fighter - Do monk abilities - falling, dodging missiles, save for no damage - require not wearing any armor or taking a dexterity bonus to AC? Can you use the monk weapon damage bonus in addition to specialization bonuses? Applying the either/or rule here. You are either acting as the monk class, in which you are bound by the restrictions of the class and gain the monk bonuses, or you are acting as the fighter, wearing armor and gaining specialization. Note that dual classing is not multiclassing. The abilities of the class are not additive. Thief(Assassin)/Fighter - Can you back stab(assassinate) in plate mail so long as you attack from behind(surprise)? You can not perform your generic thief/assassin abilities while wearing armor or wielding weapons that are prohibited by your class. Again, dual classing is not multiclassing. The abilities of the classes are not additive. Paladin/X - Do you have to do anything to retain your powers - lay hands, protections from evil, etc? You would have to do nothing that would invalidate your paladin strictures, including all time spent as the other class. If you did, then you would become a fallen Paladin/X, under the fallen Paladin rules. [/quote] |
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 9, 2008 18:47:50 GMT -5
Can you drink a potion if you're a dual-classed monk? Yes. Only in the case where monk is your second class and you have not surpassed your first class would you gain no XP for the week. |
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Post by Ginger on Jul 10, 2008 12:03:21 GMT -5
What does it mean for a god to "prohibit edged weapons"? Does there have to be specific text stating that? Or is it assumed that all gods that don't specifically allow for an edged weapon prohibit them all?
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Post by Wolfgar on Jul 10, 2008 12:36:21 GMT -5
What does it mean for a god to "prohibit edged weapons"? Does there have to be specific text stating that? Or is it assumed that all gods that don't specifically allow for an edged weapon prohibit them all? In the description of Suel gods you will see for the Clerics weapon (WPN) either Standard, Any or a specific list. Standard is what is in the PHB and doesn't include any edged weapons. Any is usually for a warrior deity and allows the same weapons as a fighter. So if you are planning on dual classing in fighter and cleric make sure you specialize in a weapon your deity allows. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Jul 21, 2008 20:54:31 GMT -5
What happens if you dual class in a class that shares the same abilities as the original class? For example does a Fighter/Ranger get the chance to specialize in two weapons? Does a Thief/Assassin have to relearn how to climb walls as an assassin or does he get to build on the skills he learned as thief?
One option would be to rule that overlapping skills stay fixed until you overtake the original class level and then they can be added to. You would get access to the original skills immediately. For instance, if at 5th level fighter you switch to ranger you would have 1st level Ranger skills but would still get to fight and save at 5th level. You would get no new weapon proficiencies or specialization until you reached 6th level ranger.
Another option would be to treat them as any other dual classing combinations. I could see this being abused with thief skills since we are allowed to apply them as we like. You could use 5 levels in thief to increase pick pocket, open locks and find/remove traps to a maximum 95%. Then use your assassin levels (above 2nd level) to increase the other skills. Once you are a 6th level assassin you can use the maximized thief skills.
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 23, 2008 19:17:56 GMT -5
What happens if you dual class in a class that shares the same abilities as the original class? For example does a Fighter/Ranger get the chance to specialize in two weapons? Does a Thief/Assassin have to relearn how to climb walls as an assassin or does he get to build on the skills he learned as thief? The Fighter/Ranger gets the chance to specialize in two weapons. The Fighter specialization is only applicable when using the Fighter class. The Ranger specialization is only applicable when using the Ranger class. So a 5/7 Fighter/Ranger who specialized in longbow as a fighter and double specialized in longsword as a Ranger would attack with the longbow as a 5th level fighter, regardless of the Ranger level. A Thief/Assassin has to relearn how to climb walls as an assassin and does not get to build on the skills he learned as a thief. The stat base of the Thief does not ever change once the class is set aside to become an assassin. The stats for the assassin grow as the assassin does. In theory, you could put all your points into specific thief skills and then into different assassin skills to min/max your character. I would probably revoke the house rules for thief ability points after that, since that issue arises only from a house rule and rescinding the house rule would clearly address the issue. One option would be to rule that overlapping skills stay fixed until you overtake the original class level and then they can be added to. You would get access to the original skills immediately. For instance, if at 5th level fighter you switch to ranger you would have 1st level Ranger skills but would still get to fight and save at 5th level. You would get no new weapon proficiencies or specialization until you reached 6th level ranger. This interpretation significantly blurs what a dual classed character is and makes it more like a multiclass character. A dual class character has two orthogonal classes, the abilities for which are never additive. The character can draw on either class abilities without penalty once the second class is greater than the first, but no intentional synergies arise from the two classes. At no point would a dual class character ever be able to take advantage of a higher level first class skill and receive XP for that week. Thus the 5th level Warrior/1st level Ranger who drew upon the Warrior weapon specialization would not receive XP that week. Once the Ranger was 5th level, drawing on the warrior specialization would not result in XP penalty, but the warrior specialization will never advance in effective level. Only the Ranger specialization will take advantage of the increasing Ranger level. Another option would be to treat them as any other dual classing combinations. I could see this being abused with thief skills since we are allowed to apply them as we like. You could use 5 levels in thief to increase pick pocket, open locks and find/remove traps to a maximum 95%. Then use your assassin levels (above 2nd level) to increase the other skills. Once you are a 6th level assassin you can use the maximized thief skills. I agree this could be abused in this manner. Since the situation is an artifact of house rules we have developed, I would lean heavily towards simply removing the house rule. Then the thief/assassin (or monk/thief or monk/assassin) class combination would not be susceptible to this abuse. |
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Post by venger on Jul 24, 2008 8:50:05 GMT -5
a) I am fan of the thief ability house rules. Two thieves can have vastly different skill sets - as opposed to everyone being a thief, generic.
b) Dual-classing to a thief/assassin, or a monk/assassin, or a thief/monk-assasin holds no appeal to me.
Having said that:
I do not see how a character having the pickpocket ability, climb walls and open locks of a 5th level thief and the hide in shadows, move silently, hear noise of a 7th level monk is any more abusive than a 5th level bow specialist fighter/7th level double specialized longsword-wielding ranger. The fighter/ranger in this example is a killing machine that would put Otto to shame, while the poor thief/monk would have roughly the same skills, perhaps a few % better, than if he'd never dual-classed.
Assassins thieving skills operate at 3 levels lower anyway.
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Post by Ginger on Jul 24, 2008 11:21:46 GMT -5
I think you might have to stat-out a theoretical dual classed thief to see how abusive you could be. I think the house rule that you can only put so many points into a particular skill per level is going to be pretty good at minimizing abuses.
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Post by Dead Greyhawk on Jul 24, 2008 11:56:11 GMT -5
At 35% points a level (15% points max per skill per level), a 5/7 thief/assassin would have 350% points to invest in thief skills. Each individual maximized thief skill (4) would gain 75% points. A comparable single class character would be 7th level and have 245% points to allocate, resulting in 3 equivalently maximized skills.
Assassins operate as thieves of level - 2 not level - 3.
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Post by Mr. Trommer on Sept 15, 2008 15:03:43 GMT -5
The description under bard states:
“A bard always engages in combat at the level he or she attained as a fighter.”
Does that mean that bard’s THAC0 does not improve once the fighter level is exceeded as a bard gains levels? The DMG attack matrix doesn’t indicate the limitation.
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Post by Ginger on Sept 15, 2008 15:23:45 GMT -5
The description under bard states: “A bard always engages in combat at the level he or she attained as a fighter.” Does that mean that bard’s THAC0 does not improve once the fighter level is exceeded as a bard gains levels? The DMG attack matrix doesn’t indicate the limitation. Do bards get all of the fighter and thief abilities at 1st level? I thought they did, and that they don't need to wait until they surpass their previous class. |
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Post by Wolfgar on Dec 2, 2008 10:23:37 GMT -5
New question:
Assume a cleric in reaching 5th level now has the stats to switch to fighter. If he switches before training for 3rd level spells, will he ever have the chance to learn those spells? Some time in the future can he take a couple of weeks and do the cleric training then? Or does he need to train before switching?
Does this apply to all training in the first class? For example, weapon proficiencies gained but not trained for in the first class.
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Post by Ginger on Dec 2, 2008 10:57:25 GMT -5
He cannot train after dual-classing. That's why Rensslaer didn't dual-class as a 3rd level priest. I think it's the same for weapon proficiencies, but that seems less relevant, since most dual-classed characters usually have a ton of them anyway.
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